8mm clarifications

fed168

New member
Can anyone explain what 8mm is? I just got my Yugo Mauser, and want to reload for it. Paperwork with it says 7.92x57. How much different is it from the 8x57mm, 7x57mm, and whatever else 8mm there is (I know 8mm Mag does not work). Surplus calibres are new to me so I do not know, plus I am trying to avoid corrosive surplus ammo.
If I cannot reload for it, where can I get some non-corrosive ammo?
 
Fed168, the 7.92x57mm Mauser and the 8x57mm Mauser cartridges are one and the same. What you need to look out for is the actual bore diameter. The original bullet used for this caliber was a 'J' bore, .318", in the German military which stood for Infanterie(the German I was mistaken for a J). Later, the 'S' bore, for spitzer-type bullets, was developed having a .323" diameter. You can use J bore ammunition in a S bore rifle but not vice-versa. I believe all American made ammunition for the 8x57mm Mauser caliber use .323" diameter bullets. Hope this helps!

Steve Mace
 
Thanks Steven, that helps alot. I visited ammoman.com after posting this, and found that they have 8mm Mauser. Now being that this rifle is post war, am I to assume that it has the .323 bore? The ammo listed at that site is FMJ.
 
The "common" 8mm Mauser, is also referred to as the 8x57 Mauser. The German military designation is the 7.92mm, and you'll see that stamped on the barrels of Gew98 and Kar98 Mauser rifles chambered for the 8x57. I don't know for sure, but it's probably stamped somewhere on the other German military arms of the period that were likewise chambered, to include the MG-34, MG-42, Maxim, FG-42 (What I wouldn't give for one of those!), G-41, and G/K-43. Other military guns chambered for the 8mm Mauser included the British Besa MG, Czech VZ-24 Brno (98 Mauser), Czech ZB-29, Czech Brno LMG, Yugoslavian M-48 (98 Mauser), Belgian (Egyptian contract)SAFN-49, the Belgian 98 Mausers, the Portuguese Model 1904 Mauser-Verguiero, some late-war Italian Carcanos, and I've seen at least two Israeli M1 Garands chambered in 8mm Mauser. I probably missed a whole bunch of guns chambered for that round, but at least I gave it a good try. Maybe a FN Model D and some export 1917 Browning machine guns?


The older brother of the 8mm (7.92) Mauser is the 7mm Mauser. The 7x57 Mauser is a different round, and is indeed that, a 7mm. The 7mm Mauser was the round that caused Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders so much grief at the hands of the Spanish at San Juan Hill in Cuba. The earlier Small Ring Mausers were chambered for 7mm, to include the 93, and 95 Mausers. There were some Large Ring 98 Mausers chambered for it, notably the Argentinian Mausers, and I believe the Mexican Model 1910 (which was an intermediate-length Large Ring).

Now, you're eventually going to run into a nomenclature roadblock when discussing the 8mm Mauser, because prior to world War 1, essentially beginning when Germany adopted the Commission rifle of 1888 (Gewehr88)and it's new smokeless cartridge, the bore size of the rifles was .318". This was the standard 8mm bore dimension until after the adoption of the improved 98 Mauser (Gewehr98), when bore size was increased to .323" and a lighter, pointed spitzer bullet was adopted, bringing the 8mm Mauser cartridge into the performance realm of similar cartridges like the US .30-06. (I really slaughtered the timeline here, but it was for the sake of brevity)

Fast forward to post-WWII America. There are supposedly lots of those 88 Commission rifles still in use, (yeah, right), and for liability purposes, to prevent somebody from hand-grenading themselves by stuffing .323" ammo into a .318" bore 88 Commission rifle, all the commercial US ammo manufactures severely download their 8mm Mauser ammo, such that it is actually closer to .30-40 Krag, and even .30-30 Winchester power levels, as compared to European 8mm Mauser. This was intended to allow even the silliest of folks to fire the current .323" bullet 8mm Mauser ammo in their old .318" bore 88 Commission rifles and walk away in one piece.

Now, I mentioned this not to confuse you, but to give you an idea what's gonna happen when you go out and buy a box of Winchester, Remington, Federal, or PMC 8mm Mauser ammo, and think it's pretty smooth-firing stuff. Then you go and get some of the reloadable Sellier & Bellot, or surplus non-reloadable Yugo, or Egyptian, or Persian 8mm Mauser, and wonder why the stuff has so much more wallop. It's something to think about when and if you reload for your 8mm rifle, too. Accurate Arms has actually included a second load listing for the 8mm Mauser, loaded to European specs, bless their hearts.

For surplus ammo, I'd try AIM surplus, Ammoman, SOG, Century, Dennis Kroh of Empire Arms, and I'm sure a whole slew of other distributors. And even if they tell you it isn't, treat the ammo as if it's corrosive, meaning hot, soapy water through the bore immediately after you're done shooting for the day. Better safe than sorry.

Whew, that was probably way more than you wanted to know. But it'll ease us into the coming response from Jim Keenan, right? ;)


(Just playing with you Jim!) :)

[Edited by Gewehr98 on 12-26-2000 at 12:39 AM]
 
Gewehr98, that was a pretty thorough answer. You probably took the words right out of Jim Keenan's mouth!

That's unsanitary.

:), Art
 
fed16

A quick check of one of my books indicates that all Yogoslav Mausers used the 7.92X57mm ,3232 bullet diameter cartridge>
 
8mm

This subject has been well covered all ready,but they didn;t mention the best part.These guns normally shoot like a bandit.With some cheap surplus ammo you can usually get around moa with these guns.They are close to 3006 power levels and when you load your'e own you have a great old rifle.Lots of aftermarket parts(synthetic stocks,scope mounts etc)if you want to go that route.They are a lot of fun for the money.
 
Bore vs groove.

Hi, folks,

Right, Jim Keenan can't resist. Yes, the Yugo Mausers are made for the "S" bullet 8mm Mauser. Most of the "Yugo" Mausers are really K.98k's or Vz24's with the original markings removed. The closest non-corrosive commercial load is the S&B, which is a full power load, as proven at both ends of the rifle.

(In the following, there are some approximations due to metric conversions; those with better measuring or conversion tools may feel free to correct them.)

Gewehr 98, you are not quite correct on the difference between the old and new 8mms. The bore diameter is the same, at .311 inch. (In a breechloading rifled firearm, the bullet is the groove diameter, not the bore diameter.)

The Germans found that a .318 (8mm) bullet would give a groove depth of only .0035, which was found to be not deep enough (U.S. rifles of the period use a .308 bullet with a .300 bore, giving a groove depth of .004). So they went a bit overboard and deepened the grooves to .006, using a .323 (8.2mm) bullet. This created a problem with the new ammunition, not so much in the barrel but in the case neck area, where the new ammo would either not fit or, if it did fit, would not allow the case neck to expand, raising pressures.

The Model 88 rifles with the "S" marking have not been rebored or re-rifled. The only change was to run in a new chambering reamer and expand the case neck and leade areas of the chamber. There was apparently no concern over firing a .323 bullet in a rifle with a groove diameter of .318, and it seems to have given no problems.

German military arms are not actually marked with the caliber of the ammunition to be used. As part of the proof process, the barrels are marked with the bore diameter (in mm) as determined with a plug gauge. Markings for the 7.9 range from 7.9 to 7.93. This is not the designation for the ammunition. German service always referred to the ammo as simply 7.9, not 7.92, or 8mm, or 8 x 57; bullet diameter was 8.2mm, but the ammunition was never called that. (U.S. .30 ammunition was also called by bore diameter, not bullet or groove diameter).

The German 7.9 Ss ammo is not "almost up to .30-'06"; it is quite a bit hotter, a 196 grain bullet at 2600fps vs a 150 grain bullet at 2750.

There have been many discussions on the power of various cartridges against human targets. I met a number of GIs who had been hit in the body by 9mm bullets. I talked with some from Vietnam who had been hit by 7.62x39 bullets. I never met anyone who had been hit in the torso by a German 8mm.

Jim

[Edited by Jim Keenan on 12-27-2000 at 01:46 AM]
 
The info given on the 8x57 mm has a few historical gaps. The original cartridge was the 8x57 j or i. The j and i being, in German, interchangeable. It stood for "infantrie."The cartridge featured a 227 grain bullet of .318" diameter. The velocity was about 2000-2100fps.It was the second smokeless powder cartridge to be adopted. The 8mm Lebel, of France, was the first. The French cartridge came out in 1886, the German in 1888. The big thing about the 8x57mm is, that it was the first bottle necked rimless case. And it was not designed by Mauser, but by the Military Commision of 1888.
By the end of the 19th Century it became apparent that ammunition needed to have a flatter trajectory to be effective in the trench warfare that was believed to be the wave of the future. The Germans set up a commitee to study the problem and came up with the 8x57 js. They replaced the heavy round nosed bullet with one that weighed 154 grains. The veolcity was boosted to 2870 fps. The bullet was pointed and its diameter increased to .323(S caliber).
This sensational velocity caught everybody by surprize. The US had just adopted the .30/03, with a slow moving 220 grain bullet. We were thus forced to change our thinking about velocity and we adopted the .30/06, with the 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps, one year after the German development.
Many German 8mm cartridges have "S" in their designations. Some cartridges were made in both diameters;ie, .318 or .323.Other examples of this would be the 8x60, 8x64, etc.
 
Are there good quality hunting-type bullets available in 8mm that will expand well at 8x57mm velocities?

I've been thinking about holding out for a .308 Mauser but now you fellows have me thinking about getting a Yugo or Czech Mauser at this weekend's gun show.
 
I've taken whitetail, muley, and elk with my 8mm 1917 Amberg G98, using the Speer 170gr Semi-Spitzer atop a full-power load of IMR4895. The 200gr Nosler Partitions are also at the top of my list for decent-performing hunting bullets in 8mm.
 
Matt VDW - If 170 or 200gr are heavier than you want, Hornady has a 150gr 8mm (#3033). You can download this to .308 velocities (2700 - 2800fps), or go full power and get 3000-3100 fps.

-z
 
I have used the Hornaday 150 to take elk with my Brno sporter. It probably should have a bit heavier jacket than it does for full house loads but seems to work fine it you put it in a good spot. The only down side with the 8x57 is the change of impact when changing weight of your bullet. I only use the 150gr as it is a major project to resight if using the 170gr. I do not even want to think of the 196gr load for that. This is the only thing I see that the 06 has over the 8mm.:)
 
8mm - .06???

I just spotted this nifty-looking synthetic rifle with scope at a pawn shop that was labeled as an "8mm - .06". What the hell is that? I hope there is something I am missing here, as I'd love to have it (it's cheap). But as of yet I haven't started reloading (soon I hope), so if it's anything too out there, then I wouldn't be able to shoot it. Anything I should look for in the shape of the gun, barrel, etc? Help me out on this one please... thanks!
 
8mm-06 is an 8x57JS rifle that has had the chamber reamed out to fit a .30-06 case necked up to 8mm. It was apparently popular after WWII, when there were lots of 8mm rifles floating around, but not too much ammo for them - they would take .30-06 brass and neck it up. I don't know where they got bullets. You would have to reload for this cartridge.

-z
 
Thanks for the info guys. Since I don't have any reloading equip at the present, I will avoid this gun for now. It'd be a bummer to bring home a new toy, then have to buy reloading equip/cases/powder/bullets/primers and then learn how to use it, before even being able to shoot it. I need to make it a priority to get reloading...
 
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