80% kits DO require background checks!

S

shurshot

New member
Apparently ATF has decided that these kits DO in fact require FBI background checks, after years of being unregulated and sold online to anyone with a credit card. Appears felons have in fact been using them, according to the ATF. Check out the link below. I know, it's CNN. WSJ covered it as well.

Regardless of whether or not anyone agrees, it's an interesting read and I'm curious what they will do with the CC sales records information collected in the recent raid. :eek:

Glad I went with a FFL / back ground checked / approved Glock instead of the 80% kit I considered last summer / fall. Some of us discussed this topic in a recent thread. Not to say I told you so, but...:cool:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/11/us/atf-raid-ghost-gun-manufacturer-invs/index.html
 
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They somehow decided the KITS are firearms, but it doesn't seem the frames alone are.
The latest enforcement efforts from BATF seem to be for technical violations.
They recently did it with braces-there was some minor modification to their approved design, that they did not submit for approval. They got raided.
 
According to the article "a senior ATF agent determined that the kits fit the definition of a firearm which is described, in part, as a weapon "which will or is designed or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive."
Based on that definition and many States have similar definitions ("or may readily be converted"), the kits are considered firearms. A basic frame wouldn't fit that definition.
 
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Selling the kit that allows you to build a complete firearm seems like the problem here. When you advertise “Buy, Build, Shoot” you might be poking the bear. I have no problems with 80% lowers, but if I was a business I’d be hesitant to sell a complete kit that allows you to build a gun.
 
"Well you got the additional gun control that you wanted"(Tunnelrat)

Knock it off. :D I never wanted "additional gun control"... ONLY what we currently have in place, a simple FBI background check / FFL approved transfer. I had to go through the FFL transfer to buy the Glock 20 I chose over the 80% kit I considered. What is the difference if I had to go through the SAME FFL transfer process to buy the 80% kit? :rolleyes:
 
shurshot said:
Apparently ATF has decided that these kits DO in fact require FBI background checks, after years of being unregulated and sold online to anyone with a credit card. Appears felons have in fact been using them, according to the ATF. Check out the link below. I know, it's CNN. WSJ covered it as well.

Regardless of whether or not anyone agrees, it's an interesting read and I'm curious what they will do with the CC sales records information collected in the recent raid. :eek:

Glad I went with a FFL / back ground checked / approved Glock instead of the 80% kit I considered last summer / fall. Some of us discussed this topic in a recent thread. Not to say I told you so, but...:cool:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/11/us/atf-raid-ghost-gun-manufacturer-invs/index.html
Click to expand...
This law is going to do nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. It's just going to make it easier to disarm law abiding gun owners. I don't understand why you would support a more restrictive gun law.
 
shurshot said:
What is the difference if I had to go through the SAME transfer process to buy the 80% kit?
Click to expand...

We've been over this. One is a firearm, and at the time one was not. The ATF has now decided that something that has been sold for years as not a firearm is now a firearm. As for not wanting more gun control, that's pretty much what this is. But hey, you're an NRA Life Member, so what do I know. I will say when I saw the thread title I had a good idea who was the creator.
 
Do you understand WHY the ATF is now taking action? Did you read the article??

"ATF officials, based on data from the agency's National Tracing Center, estimate that approximately 10,000 ghost guns were recovered in the US last year, including about 2,700 in California. Polymer80 guns were used in "hundreds of crimes throughout the United States," and about 15 of the company's weapons were recovered during homicide investigations in California, the document states."
 
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I didn't expect you or a few others to experience a sudden paradigm shift, but it was worth a try. :rolleyes:
10-7
 
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You have to realize there are bad people who have lost their right to own a firearm like us responsible owners.

I shed not one tear. Should have come sooner.

There was no functional reason for these.
 
shurshot said:
Do you understand WHY the ATF is now taking action? Did you read the article??

"ATF officials, based on data from the agency's National Tracing Center, estimate that approximately 10,000 ghost guns were recovered in the US last year, including about 2,700 in California. Polymer80 guns were used in "hundreds of crimes throughout the United States," and about 15 of the company's weapons were recovered during homicide investigations in California, the document states."
Click to expand...
Do you actually believe that statistic?
 
wild cat mccane said:
You have to realize there are bad people who have lost their right to own a firearm like us responsible owners.

I shed not one tear. Should have come sooner.

There was no functional reason for these.
Click to expand...


Realizing that there are bad people is why I own a firearm in the first place. Crime rates have been higher in decades past, long before the Polymer80 ever existed. None of these statistics go into what percentage of overall crimes or what percentage of overall firearms recovered are made up by these “ghost guns”. That’s what I’m interested in and that never seems to be presented, whether deliberately or not I don’t know.

Ah, the “functional reason”. What’s the reason for magazines with capacities over 10 rounds? In a world where people agree on what is reasonable I understand what you’re saying. But people don’t, and it seems like whenever gun owners try to be reasonable we lose a mile.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This thread is under review by the moderating team for a determination of where it belongs. Until such time as the staff review is complete, it's closed.
 
Moving to Law & Civil Rights & reopening.

Let's try to focus on the topic at hand and avoid getting into political ranting.
 
A few points to consider for those who wish to participate in the discussion;
person bickering will not be tolerated.
Political rants will not be tolerated
baseless speculation on what this or a future administration MAY do is pointless.

The ATF has raided a company and contends that they have broken the law, apparently based on the "all the parts together = firearm". It also appears that this is based on the language of "readily convertible" in the law. They MAY be correct. It MAY BE that the company, by selling the receiver and all the parts in one package is breaking the letter of the law.

It MAY BE that an administrative decision moved the 80% complete receiver from just an object to a "firearm" when sold with all the other needed parts.

The usual process used to be you bought a parts kit lacking a receiver, (and so, obviously not a firearm) and bought the receiver (firearm if complete, non-firearm if not) separately. 80% lower, alone, not a firearm, parts kit, alone, not a firearm, = all good.

Now, it appears they have ruled that both together in one kit = Firearm.
This IS within their authority. It will stand, until/unless a court strikes it down (by throwing out the case)

It may very well come down to a ruling that the complete kits are "firearms" and the unfinished receivers alone are not. It may come down to something else. The ATF's case MAY get tossed. or partially supported or fully supported, until there is a court ruling, we've got NOTHING, but rumors to go with a handful of facts (there was a raid..etc)

We have not yet heard what charges will be filed. Or, even if any will be...
Without further VALID information we don't have much to go on. Until then, please keep speculation to things existing and germane to this matter.
 
10-8 / PS;

For those unaware, a lawsuit was filed against ATF this summer pertaining to this subject matter, so the sudden change in definition and subsequent enforcement of the existing law (and timing of the recent raid?), MAY have been influenced by the pending litigation. Time will tell. See the below link pertaining to the lawsuit;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sa...-to-classify-ghost-guns-as-firearms?_amp=true

ATF's site has numerous recent convictions listed involving "ghost guns" / felons, so obviously they were already cracking down on violators and well aware of the growing problem of violent offenders easily obtaining these "80% kits" and committing crimes, murders, etc. PRIOR to the suit being filed. They were in all likelihood already reviewing legal definitions and enforcement options before the litigation started in order to keep dangerous felons from buying these kits either directly or indirectly via unscrupulous and illegal 3rd party "manufacturers". Here is the ATF link;

https://search.atf.gov/search?query=Ghost+guns&op=Search&affiliate=atf

10-7
 
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The thing that torques me about all this is that the ATF apparently went straight to a raid on the business. They could have made a call to the company and said, "Hey, we've decided that selling an 80% receiver together with all the other parts necessary to build a gun constitutes selling a gun. Please stop selling these kits. Thanks and have a nice day."

Instead, we get a raid. I guess institutional memory doesn't reach back far enough to remember Ruby Ridge or the Branch Davidians. Gotta have a big, splashy raid for PR or something.
 
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