7th Circuit says registration does not violate RKBA

green-grizzly

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In this case, John Justice v. Town of Cicero, the city requires that all guns be registered. Mr. Justice (ha!) had six unregistered pistols and got caught. On appeal the 7th Circuit again holds that the second amendment is not incorporated, but the opinion goes on to say that even if it was incorporated registration would be permissible under Heller.

Here is the relevant part of the opinion:
We now turn to Justice’s Second Amendment claim. The
district court found that the Town’s ordinance requiring
the registration of all firearms did not violate Justice’s
constitutional rights because the Second Amendment
does not regulate the activities of a state or its subdivisions,
relying on this court’s decision in Quilici v.
Village of Morton Grove, 695 F.2d 261, 269-71 (7th Cir. 1982).
It noted that the Illinois Constitution subjects the right
to bear arms to the police power, and that Illinois
permits municipalities to regulate the possession of
firearms to protect the public health, safety, and welfare.
See Sklar v. Byrne, 727 F.2d 633, 637 (7th Cir. 1984).

Since the date of the district court’s opinion (October 10,
2007), there has been some water under the Second
Amendment bridge. First, the Supreme Court decided
District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008), which
struck down an ordinance of the District of Columbia
that flatly prohibited the possession of handguns.
Second, this court decided National Rifle Ass’n of America
v. City of Chicago, 567 F.3d 856 (7th Cir. 2009), in which
we concluded that the Second Amendment (under
current Supreme Court law) is not one of the parts of
the Bill of Rights that has been incorporated by the Fourteenth
Amendment and thereby made applicable to the
states. In NRA, we aligned ourselves with the Second
Circuit’s decision in Maloney v. Cuomo, 554 F.3d 56 (2d
Cir. 2009), and expressed disagreement with the Ninth
Circuit’s reasoning in Nordyke v. King, 563 F.3d 439 (9th
Cir. 2009).

If, as we have held, the Second Amendment does not
apply to the states and their subdivisions, then Justice
has no case. Even if we are wrong and the Ninth Circuit
has proven to be the better predictor of the Supreme
Court’s rulings, there is a critical distinction between
the D.C. ordinance struck down in Heller and the Cicero
ordinance. Cicero has not prohibited gun possession
in the town. Instead, it has merely regulated gun possession
under § 62-260 of its ordinance. The Town does
prohibit the registration of some weapons, but there is
no suggestion in the Complaint or the record that
Justice’s guns fall within the group that may not be registered.
See § 62-261. Nor does Heller purport to invalidate
any and every regulation on gun use; to the contrary,
the Court in Heller disclaims any such intent:
Like most rights, the right secured by the Second
Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone
through the 19th-century cases, commentators and
courts routinely explained that the right was not a
right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in
any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. . . .
For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts
to consider the question held that prohibitions on
carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the
Second Amendment or state analogues. . . . Although
we do not undertake an exhaustive historical
analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment,
nothing in our opinion should be taken to
cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession
of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or
laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive
places such as schools and government buildings, or
laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the
commercial sale of arms. [FN26: We identify these
presumptively lawful regulatory measures only as
examples; our list does not purport to be exhaustive.]​
128 S. Ct. at 2816-17 (citations omitted). Thus, even if we
are wrong about incorporation, the Cicero ordinance,
which leaves law-abiding citizens free to possess guns,
appears to be consistent with the ruling in Heller.
Yet another case of judges creating precedent by opining on issues that are not before them, and reading stuff into precedent that is simply not there.

The Judge who wrote the opinion, Wood, was one of the chief contenders for the Souter's seat.
 
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I disagree.

The judge in this case is honestly interpreting the Illinois Constitution which says their equivalent of 2A is subject to police power.

Dumb on the part of the drafters of that Constitution, but that's the wording of the supreme law of that State.

Without incorporation, it stands.

With incorporation, you have a conflict between State and Federal Constitutions, something that I have no idea how is resolved. the COTUS is the supreme law of the land, but the Illinois Constitution has been in place for quite some time and is well established. It will take some wrestling to get fixed so that a State Constitution is amended to comply with the COTUS rather than having a line simply disappear from it.
 
It cannot escape my thoughts that these judges are hideously slanted because of where they are located, either by their own corrupt volition or by being political hostage to Daley and his goons. They may very well know they can't walk out of their courtroom after having ruled any possible way other than 100% against the 2nd Amendment or else be ruined or even possibly not live to see the next day--the people who control the police and the state justice system probably wouldn't bat an eyelash to do whatever it takes to maintain their iron grip. It sounds farfetched but given the other actions of the Daley machine I honestly don't put it past them.
 
Makes me so glad, once again, I live in the repressed low income back woods state of Bikini.... errrrrr Florida!
I cannot fathom living with such government intrusion.
Brent
 
Yeah, there's a reason I changed residency, when I could!

I agree that registration would not violate the IL Constitution. Heller did not address pure registration schemes, and but also indicated that they were probably legal under the 2nd. I don't like it very much, but that's how I read it.
 
An incorporated 2A right would mean that a registration scheme would be presumed unconstitutional unless it is proven to be necessary to a legitimate government goal and reasonably adapted to achieving that goal, or something like that, right?

They're going to say it's necessary to track illegal sales and guns used in crimes, and keeping track of who owns which gun seems reasonably adapted to that purpose.

I'd be interested in hearing how we win that one, because I don't think we do.
 
An incorporated 2A right would mean that a registration scheme would be presumed unconstitutional unless it is proven to be necessary to a legitimate government goal and reasonably adapted to achieving that goal, or something like that, right?
The phrase is, "narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest."

See Sherbert v. Verner (1963) and Sweezy v. New Hampshire (1957).
 
One problem with registration is that it wouldn't apply to convicted felons. Making convicted felons register their guns in a registration scheme that aims to keep guns out of prohibited hands would be a violation of their 5th amendment rights.
 
One problem with registration is that it wouldn't apply to convicted felons. Making convicted felons register their guns in a registration scheme that aims to keep guns out of prohibited hands would be a violation of their 5th amendment rights.
Incorrect. The same argument has been attempted countless times against the income tax and has never worked.
 
Publius, isn't that only true if the standard used is "strict scrutiny?" So far, there is no real standard of review. Heller only hinted at a standard, but never actually set one, IIRC.
 
Publius, isn't that only true if the standard used is "strict scrutiny?" So far, there is no real standard of review. Heller only hinted at a standard, but never actually set one, IIRC.

Fundamental rights are in strict scrutiny. Ordinary rights are in rationality review. Unless of course the Court decides that any given issue should be somewhere in between (gender under equal protection gets "rationality with a bite").

Heller held, among other things, that the right to own a firearm is a fundamental right. We are in strict scrutiny unless the Court rules otherwise, and that would be a rather large exception to general Constitutional Law.
 
I'm fairly certain that Heller ruled out an interest-balancing or rational-basis standard of review as it relates to the second amendment.

From Heller:

JUSTICE BREYER moves on to make a broad jurispruden-
tial point: He criticizes us for declining to establish a level
of scrutiny for evaluating Second Amendment restrictions.
He proposes, explicitly at least, none of the traditionally
expressed levels (strict scrutiny, intermediate scrutiny,
rational basis), but rather a judge-empowering “interest-
balancing inquiry” that “asks whether the statute burdens
a protected interest in a way or to an extent that is out of
proportion to the statute’s salutary effects upon other
important governmental interests.” Post, at 10. After an
exhaustive discussion of the arguments for and against
gun control, JUSTICE BREYER arrives at his interest-
balanced answer: because handgun violence is a problem,
because the law is limited to an urban area, and because
there were somewhat similar restrictions in the founding
period (a false proposition that we have already dis-
cussed), the interest-balancing inquiry results in the
constitutionality of the handgun ban. QED.
We know of no other enumerated constitutional right
whose core protection has been subjected to a freestanding
“interest-balancing” approach. The very enumeration of
the right takes out of the hands of government—even the . . .

Cite as: 554 U. S. ____ (2008) 63

Opinion of the Court
. . . third Branch of Government—the power to decide on a
case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insist-
ing upon. A constitutional guarantee subject to future
judges’ assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional
guarantee at all. Constitutional rights are enshrined with
the scope they were understood to have when the people
adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes)
even future judges think that scope too broad.
 
Quote:
Incorrect. The same argument has been attempted countless times against the income tax and has never worked.

Read US v. Haynes

Actually see U. S. vs. Freed, 401 U.S. 601 (1971) to see how easy it is to drive around the Haynes argument against incrimination via registration.

Congress just made the Transferor do the legal paperwork instead of the Transferee. The result is that the person possessing the firearm lawfully (the manufacturer, FFL or person who bought it from them) does the registration. The criminal doesn't have to register (so no 5th Amendment violation) but possessing an unregistered firearm is still a violation.
 
azredhawk44:
The judge in this case is honestly interpreting the Illinois Constitution which says their equivalent of 2A is subject to police power.
Actually, the judge is interpreting the 2nd amendment to the US constitution, not the RKBA provision of the Illinois constitution (found in Article I, Section 22). See the first sentence of that portion of the opinion I quoted above: "We now turn to Justice’s Second Amendment claim."
 
Even if we are wrong and the Ninth Circuit has proven to be the better predictor of the Supreme Court’s rulings, there is a critical distinction between the D.C. ordinance struck down in Heller and the Cicero ordinance. Cicero has not prohibited book possession in the town. Instead, it has merely regulated book possession under § 62-260 of its ordinance. The Town does prohibit the registration of some books, but there is no suggestion in the Complaint or the record that Justice’s books fall within the group that may not be registered.

Two words: cognitive dissonance. They should have quit while they were ahead, after they'd pointed out that the 7th circuit previously ruled against 2A incorporation. Instead, they jump off that path into a hypothetical, showing their laziness and/or bias.

Thus, even if we are wrong about incorporation, the Cicero ordinance, which leaves law-abiding citizens free to possess guns, appears to be consistent with the ruling in Heller.

There is nothing "free" about registration. Ask the ACLU or any other civil rights group what they think about registration of speech where registrants remain "free" to speak. Do these judges really not understand the concept of chilling effects?

Judges Tinder and Bauer were appointed by Bush Jr. and Ford, respectively. Judge Wood was appointed by Clinton.
 
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