7.62x39 to weak for Scout Rifle?

S

shunt

New member
This may not be the most appropriate place to post, but I'd like some feedback from people who are sure to know about the concept of Jeff Cooper's "Scout Rifle".

Initially, Cooper stated that a Scout Rifle be able to handle a 200 kg (440 lb) target at any range which the shooter can effectively hit the vitals of the target, (this was later ammended to 880 lbs and a 300 yard maximum, making .308 Win his preferred choice).

According to one source, 1300 ft lbs of energy is necessary to put a 880 lb target down (which by the way is the energy remaining in a .308 at 300 yards). Now those of you who are hunters know that most shots at game are taken at much shorter distances, usually less than 100 yards. For my purposes, I can't imagine ever shooting at anything over 500 lbs and certainly not past 200 yards.

I have rationalized (perhaps incorrectly) that 650 ft lbs of energy at the target is the minimum energy necessary to put down a target of 440 lbs. or less. Good 7.62x39 hunting loads maintain nearly 1000 lbs. of energy at 200 yards.

I currently have a excellent bolt action carbine (CZ 527) chambered for 7.62x39 that meets most criteria for a Scout Rifle with a bit of alteration. But, before I make those alterations, do you feel that a 7.62x39 is up to the task? Does it have the power necessary to get the job done, the job being 440 lbs. at 200 yards?

Thanks for your responses.
 
Sounds like you've already decided that the 7.62x39 already fits your definition of "scout rifle". At the risk of sounding ignorant, what is up with this "scout rifle" craze? Not to dump on Mr. Cooper (whom I've never heard of before this scout rifle stuff), but it sounds like he took a 308 carbine, stuck on a scope and bipod, painted it black, and voila! Scout Rifle! If you want your rifle to fit Mr. Cooper's definition, you're out of luck. If you can hit with what you've got, and it's short and light enough for you, be happy!
 
I feel the 7.62X39 is a little light. In checking Remington's web site, we find that a 7.62x39 has similar ballistics to a 30-30 and
is shooting a smaller bullet by about 45 grains. The 7.62 is a great round for what it was meant for, a combat rifle inside of 200 yards.

------------------
Good Hunting To Ya !!
Merle
 
If you are worried about what the Scout Purists may think of the chambering, simply refer to the finished product as a 'Cub Scout' or a 'Scout Carbine'.
 
The whole "Scout Rifle" concept seems to have come into being to 1) feed Jeff Cooper's ego and 2) make money for Steyr, its definition (naturally) rests with Cooper and Steyr. I for one have no idea what a scout rifle (lower case) is. It seems to me that any reasonably good light rifle, with a durable scope and iron sights in any reasonable caliber can be a "scout rifle".

Since this would seem to include a good light rifle in 8mm or .308, built on a surplus VZ24 or any Mauser 98 action, or a pretty much "as is" Remington Model 7, I would think that anything like that would fill the bill. Of course, it would not meet the main requirement of a "scout rifle", which is that it cost over $1500 and make ol' Jeff rich.

Or just buy any good rifle, and call yourself a scout. Then you have a scout rifle.

Jim
 
Well, the Scout Rifle has been pretty thoroughly discussed for several years...

The basic idea is for a maximum weight of seven pounds and quick target acquisition; and a cartridge suitable for the most commonly hunted big game animals. The .308 is a reasonable choice.

Cooper believes that if you mount a long eye-relief scope forward of the magazine, you can keep both eyes open as you bring the rifle to shooting position. He believes this is faster for first acquisition and for a second shot if needed. Thus the 2X or 3X magnification. A minor benefit is the ability to reload from a clip.

Now, Steyr came up with their own ideas, SFAIK, about the bipod and the spare-ammo holder. (Of course, many people like bipods on their rifles.) As for Steyr's idea for the shape of the stock--apparently it works just fine, but I personally don't like its looks. That's just old, traditionalist me...

Cooper has said many times he has no financial interest in, nor royalty from, Steyr.

For more info, go to http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/JeffCooper/ for some discussion; his archives make interesting reading, also.

Regards, Art
 
as if the scout rifle was a new concept, save for the optics, you could use a bunch of cavalry carbines...

mystery.jpg


(Dutch Mannlicher Cavalry Carbine)
 
Shunt:
I've considered doing exactly that, but then decided that even better would be something with a smaller bore diameter, but equal weight for more penetration and less energy loss at range.

When I have the money, I'm going to have George Stringer build a .250 Savage, Ackley Improved rifle for me.

I think bipods only have a place on varmint and "toy" guns.
 
Well said, JWR! Cooper is adamant that if the rifle doesn't meet his length and weight criteria, then it isn't a "scout rifle". To quote an anonymous philosopher (me): "Phooey!" My feeling is-find a rifle that fits you and that doesn't wear you out if you have to carry it a while and that will kill the animals that you want to hunt at the distances that you want to hunt them and Ta Da! -you have a great rifle that you'll love. Oh and BTW, practice a lot with it.
 
Well said, JWR! Cooper is adamant that if the rifle doesn't meet his length and weight criteria, then it isn't a "scout rifle". To quote an anonymous philosopher (me): "Phooey!" My feeling is-find a rifle that fits you and that doesn't wear you out if you have to carry it a while and that will kill the animals that you want to hunt at the distances that you want to hunt them and Ta Da! -you have a great rifle that you'll love. Oh and BTW, practice a lot with it.
 
AZTrooper: Isn't the primary difference between Cooper's idea and many common rifles mostly in the sighting-concept?

Look: I have a 19" Sako, .243, which weighs in at seven pounds with a Leupold 2X7, five rounds of ammo and a sling. It could just as easily be a .308 at the same weight. Other than the forward mount, long eye relief and low power scope, it would be a Scout Rifle. But it's conventional, so it ain't a Scout Rifle.

I dunno. Cooper coined the name for a specific idea. Doesn't matter a whole bunch if it's a good idea or not. Seems to me a bunch of folks are behaving as though they're mad because he "stole" the name. The world is full of light, handy rifles or carbines. But if the scope and mount are not a la Cooper, they ain't "Scout" rifles.

The question I would raise (seems more important to me, anyway) is whether his sighting idea can, with practice, be faster at target acquisition than a conventional mounting. I just don't know--and until I've compared the two, I won't know.

As far as the AK cartridge, SFAIK it's a 140-ish-grain bullet at about 2,300 ft/sec. A thutty-thutty will shoot a 150-grain bullet at around 2,400 ft/sec, or a 170-grainer at 2,200. So, if somebody wants to use a good soft-point bullet in that cartridge, it's a minimal deer cartridge. Say, 150 yards. Shot placement, clean kill. Always.

FWIW, Art
 
Thanks for all of the feedback.

I agree that one of the major factors (differences) of a Scout Rifle is the forward mounted sighting system. One of the benefits of a forward mounting scope is that it is very low profile, making the gun much less top heavy and consequently improving balance. Furthermore, Cooper calls for the scope to be easily detachable in the event that the "back-up" iron sights become necessary.

Agreed, most light weight hunting rifles will do everything a Scout Rifle will do, but perhaps in a more specialized arena. Ideally, Scout Rifles should be handy, compact, lightweight, utilitarian, and reliable under all circumstances.Sort of a "do everything, anywhere" kind of weapon.

If I were a "purist" I'd go spend $2000+ on a Styer, but I'm not that much of a gear queer. I'm interested in the concept (don't know if I agree with it yet, because I haven't tried it) and have considered building a Scout Rifle on both a Mauser action and a Enfield action. But, when I came across this little CZ Carbine it caused me to re-evaluate the concept for my purposes. Thus the question about the 7.62x39 cartridge (BTW, 125 gr @ 2400 f.p.s.). Is this cartridge capable of taking down a 440 lb target at 200 yards, assuming proper shot placement?

By the way, this little CZ 527 Carbine is a sweetheart. Give it a try, you won't regret it. It may not have what it takes to make Cooper happy, but I can live with calling it a "Cub Scout".
 
Some time ago, a rifle expert offered his opinion on the Cooper Scout Rifle on this very board. It went something like this:

The scout rifle is a pistol expert's opinion of what a rifle should be.

The expert was the late Gale McMillan.
(not a quote, but the quote is out there if you want to find it)

[This message has been edited by Danger Dave (edited November 03, 2000).]
 
Gale did have a way with words. Still miss him...

While Cooper may be more of a pistol expert than any consideration as a rifleman, that's an opinion. Cooper has quite a history--over 60 years--of rifle shooting. I certainly wouldn't call him ignorant. More important, he's a professional student of the world of arms.

It all comes back to what I have queried so many, many times: "Whatcha wanna do with your rifle?" Purpose.

The "best" rifle is the one with which you can do best at whatever you intend to do. Doesn't matter if it's home defense, hunting deer, serious target competition...Whatever.

Thinking as a hunter, I can see the Scout Rifle as very good for succeeding at a snap shot on game. I know I have not taken some shots with my conventional rifles because I could not get up and on target in time to try a shot. There is indeed a similarity between that sort of shot and bringing a pistol from the holster and hitting a target in minimum time. Seems to me, then, that there is a specific and legitimate purpose to the Scout concept.

More in keeping with the thread: I would not use the AK cartridge on a 200kg animal at 200 yards with any body shot. The odds are too great that the wound would not be readily incapacitating.

IMO, I would limit the hunting use to smaller deer, at most, and I would probably not take a shot at over 100 yards.

Robert Ruark wrote a book, "Use Enough Gun". I tend a toward, "Use a bit more than enough gun.", thinking in terms of a clean, quick kill, or ready anchoring of the animal in the event of a bad shot.

Just my opinionated opinion...

:), Art
 
Thanks Art, I appreciate your opinion.

I can't say exactly what the purpose of this rifle would be, other than to say "a general purpose rifle".

But, when it comes to hunting I was thinking along the lines of Texas white-tail and wild hogs. I too agree that a clean kill is very important and my larger targets usually wind up with a 45-70 or 30-06 slug in them. But, I have no experience with the 7.62x39 cartridge as a "medium" hunting load.

Has anyone here ever hunted with it? Results?
 
I've never hunted with 7.62x39, but it seems pretty popular here in Georgia. IIRC, the ballistics are similar to a .30-30, which has probably taken more deer than any other round around here.

But, conditions are different in GA than TX - a 50-yd shot through the woods is a pretty long one in Ga. because of the limited visibility. And there aren't too many elk or bears wandering around, so it's plenty adequate for whatever you're shooting at.

Here, I think a 7.62x39 would make a fine choice for hunting, plinking, whatever.

A scout rifle is an interesting concept, I just don't the high-powered .308+ version is the best choice for where I live. And at 50 yds. or less, why bother with a scope? High-visibility sights would probably be just as quick, or maybe quicker.
 
JWR: At the risk of sounding ignorant, what is up with this "scout rifle" craze? Not to dump on Mr. Cooper (whom I've never heard of before this scout rifle stuff), but it sounds like he took a 308 carbine, stuck on a scope and bipod, painted it black, and voila! Scout Rifle!

Mr. Cooper has been around for a long time, is highly respected, and has done a great deal of work designing and refining the "scout rifle". Go read "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak The Truth" for a detailed analysis of his concept.

Jim Keenan: The whole "Scout Rifle" concept seems to have come into being to 1) feed Jeff Cooper's ego and 2) make money for Steyr, its definition (naturally) rests with Cooper and Steyr. I for one have no idea what a scout rifle (lower case) is. It seems to me that any reasonably good light rifle, with a durable scope and iron sights in any reasonable caliber can be a "scout rifle".

If you have no idea what a scout rifle is, then you are hardly in a position to evaluate it or decide what may be called one. Cooper spent a lot of time working with a lot of talented/experienced people to design and develop the "scout rifle". Steyr got involved long after the idea was fully developed.

AZTrooper: Cooper is adamant that if the rifle doesn't meet his length and weight criteria, then it isn't a "scout rifle". To quote an anonymous philosopher (me): "Phooey!"

Cooper is the one who coined the phrase and defined it after much work, and is rightfully annoyed at people casually applying the phrase as a buzzword when they don't understand the definition. Calling dung a rose serves only to make one look foolish. If you call a non-"scout rifle" a "scout rifle", the only result is confusion and annoyance.

Danger Dave: The scout rifle is a pistol expert's opinion of what a rifle should be.

That's just insulting. Cooper is very familiar with rifles, with plenty of experience on the range, out hunting, and in combat.

shunt: I can't say exactly what the purpose of this rifle would be, other than to say "a general purpose rifle".

Cooper frequently observes that a major problem with most products is that they were not designed for a purpose, and that developers of such items tend to get annoyed when asked "why?".

The "scout rifle" is a carefully developed tool design for a particular purpose. Cooper:
a general-purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target.
Many years of research went into developing an optimal tool to satisfy these requirements, culminating in the "scout rifle" design (here written up by John Schaeffer):
By the definition of the Scout Rifle Conferences held under the auspices of Jeff Cooper the scout rifle has been defined as a general purpose rifle suitable for taking targets of up to 400 kg (880 pounds) at ranges to the limit of the shooters visibility (nominally 300 meters) that meets the following criteria:
Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm), with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

One may disagree with the suitability of or alternatives to the "scout rifle", either out of experience, preference, or ignorance. Nonetheless, the "scout rifle" is a particular term with a particular meaning, and using that term with an alternate definition serves only to create confusion and belies arrogance and ignorance. Use the term as defined; if a gun does not fit that definition, it simply does not deserve the name.
 
Well now. There ya have it. To quote His Cooperness, when he referred to the DA/SA autopistol, "It's an interesting solution to a nonexistent problem". And I'd hardly call the late Gale McMillan a novice when it came to rifles.

I'll take my dose of ignorance with a side of fries, please.

[This message has been edited by Gewehr98 (edited November 03, 2000).]
 
Gee golly,

I apologize all over the place and promise to get out the prayer rug and bow toward wherever Cooper lives. (I don't know if the new regime ran him out of SA yet.)

Except for the long eye relief scope, I still don't see any difference between the super duper Scout Rifle and any other accurate lightweight rifle. And I think I would rather have a good conventionally mounted scope in QD mounts.

Cooper may not have any interest in Steyr, but he has made a lot of money writing about his ideas. Too bad none of the rest of us know anything about rifles. I'll bet most of us haven't even been to a Scout Rifle Conference, but it sounds good, especially if expenses paid and plenty of booze.

Now what is that direction, again?

Jim
 
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