7.62 surplus sticking in 308

T

timelinex

New member
So I bought a 200 pack of german surplus, for my savage fcp-k. It was more for practicing my positions, form, trigger time and less for trying to get.5MOA type shooting. Anyways, the bolt would have a harder than normal time extracting the first couple(but nothing too bad) and the brass would have slight extractor marks. I recognized this as over-pressured for my rifle, but I asked a couple of the 'knowledgable' people working at the range and they said it doesnt always signify high pressure. They said the primer looked perfect(which it did) and the bolt could be a little rough because of feeding military in a 308. Anyways, I hsot 2 or 3 more and the last one the bolt just stuck in there. I had to let it cool and do some heavy tugging to get the bolt out. Is this high pressure? I know those are all the signs of over pressured rounds BUT isnt 7.62 rated lower pressure than 308 and thats why you can't run 308 in 7.62 . That doesn't make any sense then! I'll try to get a picture of the brass up tommorow.

I have had a hard time finding anything this rifle likes but match quality ammo. I have tried 2 other cheap brands(these were steel) and those both locked my bolt on one of the rounds so I stopped using them. The sad part is when they shot, Ive had really good luck with the cheaper stuff accuracy wise in my rifle. They always shot 1-2 MOA with an occasional flier. Which is really good for the purpose they had to serve.

I'm not looking for any lectures of why waste time using non match stuff. If you don't understand the point that not every time you shoot your only focus needs to be extreme precision (.5-1 moa) then please don't reply.(For example, If im shooting offhand, the worst surplus will honestly have better precision than I can achieve)
 
The pressure of 7.62 NATO is measured slightly different than the Commercial ammunition, but otherwise is in the exact pressure range allowed for SAAMI standard .308 Winchester.

Dimensionally the 7.62 NATO is slightly larger than the .308 Winchester and the cases are heavier, which can cause a problem when reloading.

What you probably are experiencing is what can happen when firing non match ammunition in a match chamber or a commercial chamber cut to minimum SAAMI specifications, the dimensionally larger NATO spec case expands and given the heavier construction of the case, will not spring back as much as the lighter .308 Brass and this can lead to hard extraction.

Also shooting Non Match/Surplus ammunition in a rifle with a Match chamber, is not really recommended.

On another point, firing .308 Winchester in a 7.62 NATO chamber is not recommended, due to the dimensionally larger chamber causing an excessive headspace effect to occur. SAAMI spec No GO gauges have been known to be swallowed by a NATO spec chamber, hence the reason for NATO spec headspace gauges.
 
We had some battlepack Portugese that would run fine in my FAL but would FTE in the AR-10.Before we sneer at the AR-10,the chronograph showed this 147 or so gr ball was exceeding 2900 fps.That is a mite zippy for a 308.(Note,this is 2900 fps from a gas gun,and,compared to loading data/bolt guns,approaching 100 fps will be lost to the gas port.)My Well Informed Person Who Knows advised sometimes.when NATO ammo is on the commercial market,it is because it does not meet NATO spec.Sometimes,that means it is hot.I do not encourage you to pursue shooting any ammo that sticks your bolt.However,a couple through a chronograph might be interesting.A good rule to accept,pretty much,the only way to exceed expected velocities,is by exceeding expected pressures.
As summer comes on,it will get hotter,and those pressures will go up.take good care of your face.
 
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Check your headstamp.

If it is "CBC", I recommend that you do some serious checking. A friend of mine is a rangemaster, and they refuse to let anyone shoot that ammo on the range--seems it has a tendency to blow up some rifles.
 
The OP is shooting German ammo (DAG or MEN, he didn't say) and CBC is Brazilian. However, I note that CBC now owns a number of brands, including Magtech, S&B, and MEN. But the surplus ammo in question was made before the mergers.

Banning "CBC" ammo at a range is like banning Winchester ammo because of the bad lots of Q3131 in the 90's.
 
If you previously used steel cased ammo you might still have some lacquer in the chamber. When the brass cased ammo heats up the chamber some of that can get melted.

So before blaming the ammo I would clean the every loving crap out of the chamber. If that doesn't fix your problem you might try some Winchester white box or Rem UMC 147 gr FMJ loads. Not as cheap as surplus, but a lot cheaper than match ammo.

Jimro
 
I shot only 20 rounds of so of steel ammo though, and cleaned out after 10 of them or so. Would that still do it? I thought that stickyness came from the steel ammo only after hundreds and hundreds of rounds.

Yes I have DAG ammo. As far as surplus ammo being bad for match barrel, can you explain why? This is my understanding of it... The bullet itself is the same, functionality wise as a match bullet. It doesn't get stuck anywhere and it isnt built to different dimensions. The most important part of the barrel would be were the bullet travels. So how does the location where the case enters(the only part the non-match brass touches) have any effect on making a match barrel worse.

So the consensus seems to be that it could in fact be overpressured right?
 
My suggestion:Take the hundred dollar bills you will spend on any loaded ammo and buy a modest press,dies,a scale,a powder measure,and ,in this case,a Nosler manual.
Buy a couple hundred WW brass.Use two batches of 100 so you have one batch loaded while you are loading the other batch.
Get a 250 pack of Nosler 168 gr match boat tails and some Varget powder.
If your rifle is happy,work up to maybe 45 or 45.5 gr Varget from the start load.
Shoot the same,high quality ammo all the time.Keep the pressure safe with your powder scale.
Dry firing is cheaper yet.
 
I was actually looking into that earlier and couldn't find straight numbers. I know reloading match quality ammo averages 50 cents a shot with 308. How about reloading cheaper ammo. How cheap can you reload something and still make it decent. Everywhere I looked it seems like the actual ammo parts are all in the same price range. So the cheapest stuff end up only pennies less.
 
You can save some money buying bulk military style bullets and processed military brass,but I did not research that.Go to Graff
's.Midway,Natchez,Powder Valley,etc and check prices.There is a Brassman and Scarch,or something like that,good dealers of used brass.Search once fired brass
Ballpark,from Midway,WW brass,about$200 for 500.You are using a bolt gun.With good reloading practice,you should easily get at least 5 reloads
Lets call your amortized brass cost 8 to10 cents.
Those Noslers are $70 for 250 right .That is 28 cents.3 1/2 cents for a primer.
You will get about 150 loads out of a lb of powder.Lets call the powder and the primer20 cents.So, 56 or58 cents for good,match grade ammo.For a small clue how good,go look at the thread "New Kreiger barrel for AR-10 shoots"
Also,in 308,you will get 4000 or 5000 rds before your barrel degrades.Cheap ammo or good.Something that will go "bang",be cheaper than cheap military,and will be very kind to brass and barrel,would be some good cast gas checked loads at 1600-1800 fps.
 
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A couple of things stand out here. First, military bullets are NOT the same as commercial match bullets. Consider that military ammo is designed and spec'd for high volume use in military type rifles with possibly loose chambers. If you've been having problems chambering some lots of ammo, it's possible you've galled the bolt lugs causing hard bolt lift even at normal pressure.
Second, with a tight match chamber and close to max loaded ammo, you could be getting overpressure conditions occasionally. Lubed boltlugs are happy boltlugs. My suggestion would be to find some generic Win or Rem FMJ and see if the problems show up when using that.
 
I have no problem chambering the ammo, goes in perfectly. For that matter it goes out perfectly as well, only have trouble after firing ammo.

Where are the bolt lugs, is that the two spinning objects at the end of the bolt(bolt face and thing behind it)
 
Were the rifle mine, I'd clean the chamber well with a good chamber brush and try some different ammo like WWB or American Eagle. If the problem still persists, the rifle would be either going back to Savage or off to a gunsmith.
 
Where are the bolt lugs, is that the two spinning objects at the end of the bolt(bolt face and thing behind it)
Click to expand...

The "spinning object" is the safety collar. Lubricate the area between the safety collar and what is in front of it.

Jimro
 
Don't know if you're shooting a PTR-91, but I believe the manufacturer advises against using surplus and a wide variety of other ammo, strange as that may seem...
 
What should I lubricate it with, some regular remington oil. Will this make a difference considering it works just fine with good ammo?
Here are the pictures of the brass

Here is the four of them:
brass1.jpg

Now here is what seems like the worst, notice the extractor marks
brass2.jpg
 
That is pretty similar to what I got shooting milsurp through my Savage, unless you start seeing other pressure signs I wouldn't worry too much.

And no, Remoil won't cut it. Go to an auto parts store and get some Mobile synthetic grease. It is like 8 bucks for a tub and will last you for dang near forever.

Jimro
 
The marks I see look to be more likely caused by tight chambering rather than high pressure. I've shot some of this ammo but don't remember details since it's been a while.
I'll second the cleaning of the chamber. If you don't have a chamber brush, use a 45 cal pistol brush and a rotating motion inside the chamber. Clean the lug recesses inside the action and grease(not oil) the boltlugs then work the grease in by opening/closing the bolt 10-12 times before using it again. Use the Remoil on the inner workings of the bolt and the cocking lug at the rear. I've seen some Savages that were very rough on the cocking cam causing difficult bolt lift even when dry fired.
 
A friend had the sme problem with South African surplus, ( in a Savage ) I suspect your rifle has a minimum sized chamber, and the surplus is a little bigger ... and after you close the bolt all the way, you have cammed it in pretty tight / snug. After firing it the brass has no real/meaningful room to shrink down, for easy extraction.
I don't know how to fix this, I'd try to make sure the brass is free of any goop, and give 'em a quick clean-up with 0000 steelwool. Sometimes brass can have that squeaky clean feeling ( Seen it on CCI/Speer Blazer Handgun ammo ) ... when its like that, I've had nothing but FTF and FTE problems.
 
Ok guys, I will try everything you guys recommended, I have a .30 nylon brush so I will use wipeout and after hit it with that. As far as steel wooling the ammo, I can certainly do that but do I have to be extra careful or anything? I don't want the thing going off!

I just wanted to make sure, I'm not causing the bore any harm by trying again and having it sticky right? I wouldn't think so since the only part that's getting abuse is the beginning of the barrel that only the casing touch's so even if it wears, thats not the part that touches the bullet and would effect accuracy...
 
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