Could a Marlin lever gun be chambered for the 500 S&W? Better yet, a wildcat necked down version of that or a similar round. Goal is a flat shooting repeater using a case not to exceed 1.6 inches to comply with a dumb state law. I just happen to like the Marlin guns, especially the old ones, and have had them be very accurate. Not married to that idea, all ideas welcome.
500 Marlin?
- Thread starter cptmclark
- Start date
Marlins already come in .44 mag and .41 mag. The .41 is 1.590" OAL. The .44 1.610" max. That's loaded ammo. None of 'em are flat shooters though.
Converting one to .500 S&W would require a custom barrel and modification to the bolt face and extractor. And it's max case length is 1.625" too.
"...to comply with a dumb state law..." And people think Canadian law is daft.
Converting one to .500 S&W would require a custom barrel and modification to the bolt face and extractor. And it's max case length is 1.625" too.
"...to comply with a dumb state law..." And people think Canadian law is daft.
500 Marlin
My mistake, the 500 does qualify under the new state law for case length. The 460 does not. I was very surprised to see Hornady's advertised external ballistics for the 500 S&W , and using their pointed "evolution" 300 grain bullet for tube mags, to be (from a 10 inch barrel) 2075 fps and 2868 ft pounds. Wish I had a formula to convert to 22 or 24 inch barrel, but my guess is 2300 fps and 3000+ ft pounds. I've seen no trajectory tables for this but it appears to be the best of factory rounds to meet the "dumb state law". Remember, until this week this state required shotgun, muzzle loader, or certain handguns, so I see this as an opportunity.
I don't know if the Marlin actions ("Cowboy" or 336) would take the pressure of some of these, like the 454 Casull or if the ejection port is large enough for the 500 (.556 rim, .526 case). I would rebarrel the Marlin and re-bolt to try it out if it is doable. (I know about the Puma 454 carbine) First choice for aesthetics would be the Marlin Cowboy, with the octagonal barrel. I don't know about the action strength though. Anybody?
Also, I'd like to investigate making a wildcat such as a 50/35 or 50/30. Would that work with existing barrels rechambered? How could I get started with such a project and where to get formulas for accuracy potential and the like? Easier than a rebarrel and rebolt? That would really be fun.
Is there a source of formulas to figure potential pressures, velocities, trajectories, shoulder angles, twist requriements and such? This could be a whole lot of fun, but I haven't the expertise to determine if it's feasable. If it is, who makes custom dies and cuts custom chambers? I suppose any good gunsmith could do the rebarrel, (if there is such a barrel) and bolt?
Thank you for the interest. Didn't mean to make this so long.
My mistake, the 500 does qualify under the new state law for case length. The 460 does not. I was very surprised to see Hornady's advertised external ballistics for the 500 S&W , and using their pointed "evolution" 300 grain bullet for tube mags, to be (from a 10 inch barrel) 2075 fps and 2868 ft pounds. Wish I had a formula to convert to 22 or 24 inch barrel, but my guess is 2300 fps and 3000+ ft pounds. I've seen no trajectory tables for this but it appears to be the best of factory rounds to meet the "dumb state law". Remember, until this week this state required shotgun, muzzle loader, or certain handguns, so I see this as an opportunity.
I don't know if the Marlin actions ("Cowboy" or 336) would take the pressure of some of these, like the 454 Casull or if the ejection port is large enough for the 500 (.556 rim, .526 case). I would rebarrel the Marlin and re-bolt to try it out if it is doable. (I know about the Puma 454 carbine) First choice for aesthetics would be the Marlin Cowboy, with the octagonal barrel. I don't know about the action strength though. Anybody?
Also, I'd like to investigate making a wildcat such as a 50/35 or 50/30. Would that work with existing barrels rechambered? How could I get started with such a project and where to get formulas for accuracy potential and the like? Easier than a rebarrel and rebolt? That would really be fun.
Is there a source of formulas to figure potential pressures, velocities, trajectories, shoulder angles, twist requriements and such? This could be a whole lot of fun, but I haven't the expertise to determine if it's feasable. If it is, who makes custom dies and cuts custom chambers? I suppose any good gunsmith could do the rebarrel, (if there is such a barrel) and bolt?
Thank you for the interest. Didn't mean to make this so long.
TheShootist1894
New member
Idea!!
Look at this website, this should satisfy all your questions, although it will likely have the opposite effect on your wallet, but I think this is what you want.
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
Look at this website, this should satisfy all your questions, although it will likely have the opposite effect on your wallet, but I think this is what you want.
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
Dear Shootist
That rifle really looks great. I'm still faced with the problem of requiring a case length not to exceed 1.625 inches. The 500 meets that, but it's only chambered now in the H&R single shot, as far as I know. Now if I could neck that down to say, 35 caliber, 30 or even 45, keep the pressure constant, it would be ideal. Hence my 50/35 idea. Of course the 500 itself, with the new hornady pointy load at 300 grains (giving 2000fps from a handgun), in a rifle would be better than anything available now, I think. Maybe a single shot will have to do, but I'd want to be a quality item.
That rifle really looks great. I'm still faced with the problem of requiring a case length not to exceed 1.625 inches. The 500 meets that, but it's only chambered now in the H&R single shot, as far as I know. Now if I could neck that down to say, 35 caliber, 30 or even 45, keep the pressure constant, it would be ideal. Hence my 50/35 idea. Of course the 500 itself, with the new hornady pointy load at 300 grains (giving 2000fps from a handgun), in a rifle would be better than anything available now, I think. Maybe a single shot will have to do, but I'd want to be a quality item.
TheShootist1894
New member
If you got the money they got the time
That outfit out of Alaska will do whatever you want, even a 500 S&W, I completly love the Idea, let me know if it gets done. . .
maybe tomorrow I'll write a letter to Marlin. . . This idea needs put into motion, 500 S&W 5 inch revolver and 1895.5, as I have denoted it, the ultimate cowboy action pair
That outfit out of Alaska will do whatever you want, even a 500 S&W, I completly love the Idea, let me know if it gets done. . .
maybe tomorrow I'll write a letter to Marlin. . . This idea needs put into motion, 500 S&W 5 inch revolver and 1895.5, as I have denoted it, the ultimate cowboy action pairTrimixDiver
Inactive
Late last year I bought a .500 S&W barrel for my Encore. It is a 20" Stainless Katahdin rifled carbine barrel with a peep sight. It is a stock barrel from Thompson/Center. It weighs about 6 lbs and when you let one off you know about it. So far I have only used Hornady 350gr XTPs in it. The range was crowded the day I had it there so I did not set up my chronograph to see velocity increase for the 20" barrel. I too want Marlin to make a 500 S&W, I cant afford the $$$ for the Wild West Guns version. I already had the Encore so for less that $300 I had new barrel.
Talked to Marlin
I've been informed by Marlin that they will not, no room for discussion, will not make any new calibers in their rifles. As to the pressure limits of the 1894 I was told to call back when the guy who knows stuff is there. Heck, if there turns out to be no safety problem, remove the 45 LC colt barrel from an 1894, bore the chamber out a few thousandths, reinstall, and you'll at least have a 454, which is no 500 but no slouch either. The Puma doesn't move me, at least from what I've read, but an old Marlin is much more interesting.
I've been informed by Marlin that they will not, no room for discussion, will not make any new calibers in their rifles. As to the pressure limits of the 1894 I was told to call back when the guy who knows stuff is there. Heck, if there turns out to be no safety problem, remove the 45 LC colt barrel from an 1894, bore the chamber out a few thousandths, reinstall, and you'll at least have a 454, which is no 500 but no slouch either. The Puma doesn't move me, at least from what I've read, but an old Marlin is much more interesting.
Wildalaska
Moderator
The Marlin wont handle the 500 S&W.
We have been working for two years on a lever gun that will and have several firing prototypes. We are working to get it in production.
WildtakestimeanddollarsAlaska
We have been working for two years on a lever gun that will and have several firing prototypes. We are working to get it in production.
WildtakestimeanddollarsAlaska
I have a little experience in converting Marlin lever rifles, having done 3 of them. Due to how the rifle feeds, it is easiest to stick with a cartridge that won't require major modifications, i.e. same length as the original chambering for the rifle.
We converted a 444 to 375 JDJ, but that is too long for what you are talking about. Neat rifle, though.
We converted a 30-30 to 357 Herrett, which presented a few challenges but was essentialy a drop-in. I believe the 357 Herrett case is too long for what you are planning, but I would have to check.
AND (drum roll, spotlights)
We converted a 44 Mag carbine to a 357 Bains & Davis (44 Mag necked to .357). Flat shooter, slick little round, dies are available from RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding. We mounted an extended eye relief scope on the barrel (this was before everybody was talking about Scout carbines). The customer loved it, shot 180 gr Hornadys at about 2300 fps, essentially duplicating the energy and trajectory of a 30-30. This one might be a fit for what you are looking for.
We converted a 444 to 375 JDJ, but that is too long for what you are talking about. Neat rifle, though.
We converted a 30-30 to 357 Herrett, which presented a few challenges but was essentialy a drop-in. I believe the 357 Herrett case is too long for what you are planning, but I would have to check.
AND (drum roll, spotlights)
We converted a 44 Mag carbine to a 357 Bains & Davis (44 Mag necked to .357). Flat shooter, slick little round, dies are available from RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding. We mounted an extended eye relief scope on the barrel (this was before everybody was talking about Scout carbines). The customer loved it, shot 180 gr Hornadys at about 2300 fps, essentially duplicating the energy and trajectory of a 30-30. This one might be a fit for what you are looking for.
TheShootist1894
New member
No No No No
I don't want to modify a current production Marlin 1894 or 1895
I want a new model like I said, 1895.5,
1895 for the same style action, maybe beefier to handle hot 500's
and .5 for 500 S&W
they would sell me at least one
Marlin won't let me down, they probably just want to wait awhile to ensure the 500's longevity, it is after all pretty new, and made by S&W
Someday, I sure hope. . . . .
PS Alaska, how much for a 1895.5??
I don't want to modify a current production Marlin 1894 or 1895
I want a new model like I said, 1895.5,
1895 for the same style action, maybe beefier to handle hot 500's
and .5 for 500 S&W
they would sell me at least one
Marlin won't let me down, they probably just want to wait awhile to ensure the 500's longevity, it is after all pretty new, and made by S&W
Someday, I sure hope. . . . .
PS Alaska, how much for a 1895.5??
.357 Herrett is 1.75" long, too long. .30 Herrett case is 1.61" long, it would work. 357 B&D case is 1.28" long, it would also work.
Head size on the Herrett is .420", B&D head size is .450". Shorter, fatter. Rim diameter is .505" vs .515", about the same.
The 357 B&D is close to the ballistics of the 357 Herrett, possibly within 100 fps. Run 44 Mag brass into the forming dies and away you go.
.30 Herrett has to be formed from 30-30 or 38-55 brass, cut off, fireformed. A bit more work, but not a lot.
Interesting?
Head size on the Herrett is .420", B&D head size is .450". Shorter, fatter. Rim diameter is .505" vs .515", about the same.
The 357 B&D is close to the ballistics of the 357 Herrett, possibly within 100 fps. Run 44 Mag brass into the forming dies and away you go.
.30 Herrett has to be formed from 30-30 or 38-55 brass, cut off, fireformed. A bit more work, but not a lot.
Interesting?
Wildalaska
Moderator
No idea yet.
But I ask..other than for rifle/handgun combo or for availABILITY OF factory rounds, why go 500S&W over 50 Alaskan?
WildheylookimuponlineAlaska
Wild Alaska
Why not use the 50 AK?
Remember the original goal of this project is to keep the case length under 1.625 inches. For that, the 50 S&W is remarkable in potential. I've seen some photos of cases that looked like necked down 50 S&W. All I wanna do is find or make a (relatively) flat shooting Marlin with maybe 1500+ foot pounds left at 200 or so yards and accuracy potential to well exceed todays best shotgun slugs. Of course, I could just move to a more reasonable state, but this seems like an interesting and fun challenge anyway.
Why not use the 50 AK?
Remember the original goal of this project is to keep the case length under 1.625 inches. For that, the 50 S&W is remarkable in potential. I've seen some photos of cases that looked like necked down 50 S&W. All I wanna do is find or make a (relatively) flat shooting Marlin with maybe 1500+ foot pounds left at 200 or so yards and accuracy potential to well exceed todays best shotgun slugs. Of course, I could just move to a more reasonable state, but this seems like an interesting and fun challenge anyway.
TheShootist1894
New member
Wildyouansweredyourownquestionalaska
Wild, you are right I would love to have one of you magnificent 50 AK rifles
Preferably the takedown
Stainless, with all the essentials you offer
but
I don't have $3-4k to put on this gun
Now
if I was moving to AK anytime soon you would have my order, God those guns are sexy, especcialy that little firecracker you call the Bushwhacker. . . . drool drool oh my . . .
Nothing in Ohio warrents, or allows, 50 AK
not to mention it would be mostly an out of state brush gun for deer and hogs
but,
Bugs on a windshield is proof that big slow bullets can kill small game too. . .
God those guide guns are nice
Wild, you are right I would love to have one of you magnificent 50 AK rifles
Preferably the takedown
Stainless, with all the essentials you offer
but
I don't have $3-4k to put on this gun
Now
if I was moving to AK anytime soon you would have my order, God those guns are sexy, especcialy that little firecracker you call the Bushwhacker. . . . drool drool oh my . . .
Nothing in Ohio warrents, or allows, 50 AK
not to mention it would be mostly an out of state brush gun for deer and hogs
but,
Bugs on a windshield is proof that big slow bullets can kill small game too. . .
God those guide guns are nice