50 cal, 320 Gr Lee R.E.A.L. in a 1:48 twist.

W

wogpotter

New member
Well the jury is in. My Hawken likes patched round balls. The 1:48 is supposed to be a "universal" twist favoring neither round balls & patches nor bullets, so I tried a side by side comparison of the two.

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Ignoring the sighting in target on the bottom right the PRBs did 5 rounds in 1/2 a paper plate (that's a double hole on the far left) & the 2 different loads of REAL bullets couldn't break 12" @ 50 yds!

Some impressions on the Lee REAL:
Loading is "different". I found the best technique was to lightly lube the grooved portion with your preferred poison. It both starts & rams differently, you just insert it into the muzzle for the first 1/4", then place the short starter over the nose & give it a sharp tap or two (instead of steady pressure as I do with a PRB) to engrave the driving bands. Then you use the long rod of the short starter & ram normally to seat it.

It feels easier (less pressure needed) than a PRB, but its "grittier" not as smooth as a lubed patch is. It IS faster to load assuming you have a pre-lubed one handy. Probably because there's no fiddling with centering a patch, you just drop the base in & seat/ram. Recoil is noticeably heavier than with a PRB, not surprising as the REAL is double the weight. I can run a PRB up to 95 Gr of FFg, but even at 70 with the REAL its harder recoiling.

SELF-CLEANING, shoot all day because the scraping action cleans for every shot: err, a myth, sorry. After 11 rounds the bore was heavily caked & I had difficulty ramming the REAL home so I stopped & cleaned.
 
What type Hawken? Italian? Thompson Center?

Italian Hawkens like a 495 ball and the Thompson Center likes the 490 ball. The Italian has a .005 in. larger bore diameter.

Why mention that? The Lee Real is small for the groove diameter and not a fair test of conicals in the rifle Italian or otherwise.

The Lee Real will blow gas out the grooves at the muzzle like a bad crown and the gun shoots crappy.

If Italian or otherwise a Lee Improved minni has a better chance to shoot well since it has the hollow base. I'm assuming the gun is fifty caliber but it doesn't matter if it's biger bored. The Lee Improved minni with the hollow base can/may work in any caliber rifle with the 1-48 twist.

That bullet just has to load in straight like any bullet. Size for roundness and size a coupla .001's over the land diameter to stay on the powder.

At .002in. over the land diameter the bullet has a chance to load straight.

Of course the crown has to be proper with no wear from loading/cleaning.

That said....the 1-48 twist was a bad idea.Some rifles with that twist would fire balls or bullets well.Some would fire one well but not the other. Some would not fire anything well. Why? No one really knows that one. Just the way it is.

I just came to realize decades ago that to give a bullet a fair chance in one of those rifles,like any rifle, the bullets need to be round and loaded straight and that means the diameter needs to be .002 in. larger than the lands diameter and if possible a hollow base helps . The .002 lets the bullet load straight and still stay on the powder although to check it once and a while doesn't hurt when hunting.

The bullet needs to be round and most moulds for them like the Lee Improved Minni don't often make the bullets actually round.

Rapine used to make sizers for the muzzleloader bullets but they are gone now.

A simple cylinder type tube with a .002 over the lands diameter and a slight funnel at the beginning to start the bullet in base first and tap it thru with a rubber hammer and wood dowel sizes well. A machine shop should be able to make one of the sizers.

An industrious person could make their own.

I have an old Italian Hawken that has the 1-48 twist and luckily it will shoot any bullet in the right caliber straight as an arrow out a good distance too. Hollow based or not even with the slow twist for bullets and the deep grooves. Pure lead of course.

It didn't always do that but....it was because I hadn't learned to load the bullets the proper way yet. It had the crown worn some from shooting a million balls thru it and cleaning all the time without a muzzle protector. I learned to use a piloted reamer to re-cut the crown to fresh it up concentric with the bore.

I use 80gr.FFg with the bullets and more with the balls...if I want more....but with the hollow bases the powder charge needs to be so that it doesn't flare the skirt on the hollow. Less powder with the hollow bases is needed sometimes depending on the thickness of the skirt of the hollow.

Barrels need to be cleaned good enough between shots with bullets more than balls. If a bullet gives trouble going in then it usually shoots bad.

You don't want a long bullet with the slow twist either. Long is not good in those slow twists since a long bullet needs faster for stability.

The Lee Improved Minni and the Lyman Plains bullet or the Hornady Great Plains bullet work well in my rifle. But so does any bullet that loads the right way and is not too long.

Real Lee bullets are too light to obturate well into the grooves even if they are sized the right diameter and made of pure lead.

I use the 80gr. for the obsturation effect. Just my load....everyone picks what they feel is safe. The 80gr. FFg is my limit. That whomps plenty enough with the heavier bullets and with a clean barrel doesn't create too much pressure.

Dirty barrels and Itaian rifles don't mix with bullets especially with FFFg powder Always stay away from the FFFg and the heavier conicals and 70-80gr.FFg is plenty. Italian rifles can bulge or burst too easy with the heavy bullets and the FFFg powder. Tests show that. The 12L14 and the 1137 steel is soft.
 
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Its a CVA with the Spanish made 24" carbine barrel, not the earlier Green Mountain.

Bore diameter checks out correctly with a .495" RB & a 10 thou patch. Crown is fine with no damage not even a small nick. The REALs measured at 0.490" for the rear band & 0.5005 for all the others.
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I'm not too concerned I have plenty of RBs & just punch paper with it. I was originally thinking of a mine type, but wasn't (& still aren't) going to pay a buck a round for cast lead & these had a good price.

Barrels need to be cleaned good enough between shots with bullets more than balls. If a bullet gives trouble going in then it usually shoots bad.
Click to expand...
Not according to Lee. One of the selling points is that these are supposed to be "self cleaning", they aren't though.

I'm assuming the gun is fifty caliber
Click to expand...
Yes, as stated in the header.
 
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I tried the 320 grn REALs in my .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker (1:48") with deep round ball grooves, and my first shot at 50 yds was well left and had keyholed. I've read that sometimes you need to put a felt wad between, and just so happened to have some. The next two shots were touching and just a little low of the bull!

Try a wad, you may be impressed.
 
wogpotter and your 50

as in a PM each gun and shooter is a little different.
My CVA Mountain rifle is a 50 cal and is 35+ years old.
I used patched round balls at first, but it was a hassle
either centering the patch or bulk cutting at the muzzle.
So i 78 or 79 I bought the lee 360 grain REAL (not available any more).
Lost the mould over the years, so bought the Lee REAL 50 cal in 320 gr.
The ones I sent you.
in my rifle it and I prefer the REAL over the PRB.
It also depends on consistency in ramming and in powder. Always variables.
And the lube used. I make my own lube of 50 / 50 beeswax and tallow (lard)
no commercial no petroleum base no vegetable base. I adjust the ratio of the lube slightly sepending on time of year and what it is being used in.
I use this in my rifles and in my revolvers.
When I was shooting every weekend, I would hang a 12" diameter steel plate from a tree 100 yd out. As long as I hit it, I was happy. I was within the kill zone od a mule deer or elk.
Back in those days never really went much for grouping.
It can be reasonably calm at the muzzle but out here it could be a gale at the target.
So you still may be on a quest to find the best for you.
As above.
You may want to try a minie bullet with a hollowed base. May or may not be any better.
Other than your ridle didn't like the REAL's did the casting appear satisfactory.
I like to know, as I don't want to put out shoddy work.
hopefull you will have better luck with another style or stay with the PRB.
One of these fays when I get time I'll try to do some shooting.
 
I had absolutely no complaint with the casting or the alloy, both were fine. No voids or wrinkles & sharp, well defined ridges in the cast. It was just a compatibility issue I guess. There was no sign of keyholing or any other bullet related problem other than incompatibility.

I will try some more with the wad, though. I'm not complaining in any way just comparing two styles. You may be right about the Minie or Lyman, its another avenue to explore til I get the "right" combination for this particular bore.

Being err, umm, "frugal", yeah, frugal, that's it, not cheap :D I won't pay a buck a bang for cast lead though so I was hoping for a more reasonable price point. Maybe the wad & a 60 Gr charge next time round? I still have a few to play with.:)

Just a thought might your barrel have been one of the earlier Green Mountain ones? They were supposed to be better than the later Spanish ones such as I have.
 
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barrel

Can't say positively it is or isn't a green mountain.
It is not stamped made in Italy or such, So I would presume possible
Green Mountain.
serial number is 0095043
I have a terrible time trying to post any pictures here, since I don't use
flickr or photobucket etc.
But if you go to 1858 forum under the la longue carabine I will post one there of it. The post should be up later today
 
barrel and gun

if this works, think I can add the picture this way.
50 cal CVA Mountain
This was a kit purchased through Montgomery Ward sometime betwen 1978 and 80. These kits required a LOT of filing and sanding back then. The barrels were still rough from the sand cast.

nope won't work. On camera's lowest picture setting and cropping down, can't meet the ridculously low file size of 244 kb
Guess if you want to see it you will have to travel to 1858.
What gives? menu said was too big but it was still there?
 

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OK, what are they gong to do for me that other .50 cal wads wont?

I'm curious. I've made my own olive oil lubed paper mache ones & they didn't change anything. What am I missing?
 
i dont know what you've tried, just giving you the stuff that i shoot them with, otherwise they wont hit a 12" target at 50yards. I can keep these within 2" at 100 yards when i use the lubed veg wad.
 
Try 65 grain of 3F Goex with both the patched RB and the REAL.
You might find it will come in with the lighter charge of faster burning powder.
 
Worth a try.
I don't have any 3F but I can drop the 2F charge a bit & see if it tightens up any. 70 was better than 75 so maybe the trend will continue!:)
 
Meh!

Can't get them under 5" @ 50yds. Tried wads of several types & charge weights from 55 to 95 GR.

PRB it is from now on, I can't turn down 100yd results like this.

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