.454 Casull Carbine??? Why the heck not?

M

MAD DOG

New member
I have been waiting (impatiently) for the major MFGs out there to introduce some sort of carbine, either a lever or pump or bolt, in this round.
So where are they?
You would think that they would be jumping through their own a$$holes to get one done.
But no. So why?
If anyone has any suggestions for a suitable conversion, let me know. This is crying to be done, and it would answer a lot of the beargun/guidegun type needs.
 
Mad Dog.

I'm with YA... been with ya for the past 7 years. I talked to Jim West back in 93 or so when he first showed his Co-Pilot about just such a conversion. He stated that while any existing Lever Action can be rechambered for the .454 non of the exixting actions (Winchester or Marlin) can handle the pressures involved with that round. OH... they will for a while... could be 1 round or 100 but they will blow.

I'm sure a bolt and probably a pump could be modified using existing rifle cartridge capable actions.

I know that one will probably hit the market prior to my getting enought to have one custom built.

Maybe a massive letter writing campaign to Freedom Arms might get them to design one.



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Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
I am aware of the lack of ability of most of the current crop of lever guns to handle the pressure, but perhaps Browning could come out with a BLR version.
They would handle the pressure fine, and they work well.
John Traister has converted the Winchester 94 Big Bore to .458 X 2" American, and this is a high pressure cartridge for sure. It is a belted magnum based on the .458 Win Mag.
It seems to do the job, as illustrated in Wildcat Cartridges, Vol II.
I am not sure about the bolt face and feed ramp data on this gun, as I have never worked on one. It may be a candidate though. I will look into it and let you know.

We also witnessed the shortlived M1 carbine conversions to .45 Win Mag pistol cartridges.
They blew up with alarming regularity. Pity.
It was a neat idea, just too much oomph for the little carbines.
Maybe something based on the Ruger Mini Thirty, with a neck blown out to .416 or more would be a possibility. This also bears looking into.
God, I love this job,
Mad Dog
 
Mad Dog,

Asked the same question a while back on a different thread. The nearest you can get apparently is a .45 Colt trapper thats loaded to "Ruger" pressures - about 30,000 cup. Casull is basically just a .45 Colt loaded to 50,000 cup.
Thats probably higher velocity than a Casull revolver since you're shooting out of a barrel 16" long. Not bad.
I'd love to have a carbine shooting a full-house .454 Casull though, when you find one, let me know.




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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Okay, here's how we do it:
Take a Ruger #1, and convert it to a Spencer type feed system...
Urrggghh aarrgghh, time for my medication...
 
Okay, here's how we do it:
Take a Ruger #1, and convert it to a Spencer type feed system...
Urrggghh aarrgghh, time for my medication...
 
sounds interesting. Ive got my lineup in 45 LC, a Winchester 84 (new) and a Vaquero - each time i shoot them i wonder why they cant be 454 casull (44 mag seems a compromise - neither one thing or another). Now the Spencer - how'd you get it to shoot centrefire? without messing up its breech block, its strongest feature methinks.
We've been fooling around (er... "giving serious consideration" to this sort of thing in the "Cowboy Action" forum - hi fellas! (wave)
 
Thinking over the various comments: The diameter of the Casull is pretty much the same as a .308. If a rifle can handle .308 pressures, it will handle the Casull. It's not the barrel/chamber which will "blow"; it's the case. That is, a model 94 sort of critter does not use a turn-bolt to lock up.
The 50,000 psi will deform the steel at the rear of the bolt, I think, and deform the rear of the receiver. The cartridge will not seat all the way into the chamber, leaving some of the case unsupported. Sorta like too much "throating & polishing" of the feed ramp of a Colt Gov't. Bulged cases, even at the low pressures of the .45ACP.

50,000 psi + unsupported case = Oops!

Seems to me the Browning lever action could be rebarrelled, leaving only (only?) the problem of feeding. It might be possible to weld on a "stop" on the carrier? I defer to others...(Chicken noises)

FWIW...Art
 
Art,

Yes, you could certainly rebarrel a Browning BLR for .454 Casull. The BLR is capable of holding the same pressures as any bolt rifle.
However, the BLR costs twice as much as a Trapper or similar carbine and rebarreling will really add up. Might as well just buy a Guide gun or better yet, just be satisfied with a Trapper in .45 Colt or .44 mag.
I don't think the magazines on a BLR will be easily converted either. The shorter rounds would just float around in that long mag.

I wonder if you could just use slower powders in a .45 Colt and get the same velocities as the .454 Casull with less pressure? With all that extra barrel length it makes little sense to use pistol powders - you could use 3031 or 4064 to burn the entire length of the barrel and I bet you'd get a real barn burner!
As I think about this, I realize this is the way to go. Why redesign a rifle to shoot a hot pistol cartridge when you can just use rifle powders and take advantage of the longer barrel?
By girly, I think this is the answer!



------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Gunny Schmit may have hit on something, although it may not have been his exact intent.

The fastest way Freedom Arms could provide us a .454 carbine would be to convert the Casull handgun into a revolving carbine. Add a 16"+ barrel and contruct a replacement grip frame/shoulder stock.

Of course if they (or another gunsmith) could do this with the .454, the .475 Linebaugh version wouldn't be far behind. ;)
 
wonder what kind of rifling/twist one would call suitable for the short 454 bullet?
A revolving carbine... its a thought (Colt had some trouble with the blast from the cylinder gap - wasn't too popular with careless shooters).
Like the notion of working on the powder rates with 45 - have a Win. 84AE "Trails End" will experiment asap. Seems gas checks if cast bullets would be mandatory - else jacketed. Tubular mag = flat or hollow point.
 
Another option besides the BLR for a lever gun would be the Savage 99. It came out in 308 also.
As for bullets, could a 45/70 lead round (300 - 500 gr) be swaged enough to fit well?
 
Look at 458 American before going this way.
Just stirring the pot, Hank
Either one would be fun and a bit.t to feed!
 
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