I have a .451 double cavity mold that I used to use for when I had my .44 caliber cap and ball revolver. I was wondering if it would work good as shot in a 12 gauge shell. I am guessing maybe it could be only 5 or 6 balls at once. What do you guys think? Would it work? I have lots of spare lead laying around and have a friend who's a reloader and reloads my ammo for me.
.451 shot?
- Thread starter Maser
- Start date
thats an interesting idea...i don't see why not.
Physically speaking they will carry their energy a little longer than the standard (.33?) 00 buck. Also, if your still using the same initial mass of lead, i don't see why not, i mean when everything is flying down the barrel, bird, buck and what ever else has the same COM and the same energy, assuming equal mass.
go for it.
i would like to see 2 or 3 .5 balls.
Physically speaking they will carry their energy a little longer than the standard (.33?) 00 buck. Also, if your still using the same initial mass of lead, i don't see why not, i mean when everything is flying down the barrel, bird, buck and what ever else has the same COM and the same energy, assuming equal mass.
go for it.
i would like to see 2 or 3 .5 balls.
cloudcroft
New member
Sure they would.
Just weigh the total # of balls so you can determine the appropriate powder charge needed.
You may have trouble fitting .45 balls neatly into a shotcup but you'll find that out when you try. Hopefully, you can find a way to layer them somehow.
-- John D.
Just weigh the total # of balls so you can determine the appropriate powder charge needed.
You may have trouble fitting .45 balls neatly into a shotcup but you'll find that out when you try. Hopefully, you can find a way to layer them somehow.
-- John D.
I was also toying with the idea of using a .451 caliber ball as a sabot slug because i'm sure it would get pretty impressive velocity and also I would be using alloy instead of pure lead so therefore it would get good penetration in medium/large game within shotgun slug range of course.
Back to the shot topic. Would I need to put buffering in the shell such as sawdust or plastic dust or could I just have the balls in by themselves?
Back to the shot topic. Would I need to put buffering in the shell such as sawdust or plastic dust or could I just have the balls in by themselves?
the possum
New member
Hang on there, fellas. I don't have a difinitive answer for ya here, but I would strongly encourage you to research this further before trying it. I know that once the shot/balls get to just the right size, they can actually jam together in the bore, resulting in a burst barrel. This is the reason .410 shotshells are loaded with shot no larger than like #6 or #4 bird shot. (forget which is the max size...) Any bigger and instead of meshing together, two or three pellets would jam tight against the bore walls. You can get loads with three full-caliber round balls stacked on top of each other, but nothing in between.
cloudcroft
New member
Yes, I guess that COULD happen, but have never heard of it in real life. Still. it's worth investigating further for safety's sake that's for sure!
As for stacked "full-caliber round balls" such as seen in a .410-bore, that couldn't be done with the 12-gauge in most guns chambered for a 12. I figure -- off the top of my head, nothing scientific -- that a minimal 12-gauge "full-bore size" ball would be something like the .690" (musket-ball) some people (like me) use as a close-up 12 gauge slug. A .690 ball is almost 1oz. right on, I mean about 437 grains. TWO of those would be 2oz. or 874 grains. Three would be impossible in a 12, but not in a .410-bore as you said.
Besides two .690 "full caliber bore balls" not even physically fitting in any 12-gauge shotcup -- that I know of -- I don't think there is even any load data for 2oz. loads...unless you are using 3.5" shells that is...and the gun in question would need to have a 3.5" chamber of course. Mine are 3" chambers, so this would be impossible to do in my two shotguns.
I suppose you could forget the "modern" shotcups and load them the old way -- fiber wads, over-powder-cards, over-shot-cards, etc., if that would make more room in the case for TWO "full-caliber bore balls" of .690 caliber -- but I never learned how to use those components since when I started doing this, the "modern" shotcups had arrived on the scene.
Besides, Maser just wanted to recycle his .451 balls in his 12 gauge, not do anything more, so his buying other larger-sized ball (.690) or slug moulds is not likely.
Well, if worse comes to worst, he won't be able to use his .451 mould for anything except fishing line split-shot sinkers -- or possibly some "gallery-loads" in a .45ACP revolver (which he probably doesn't have anyway) -- but I hope his researching the "jammed balls blow up shotgun and shooter" issue will turn up something more positive for him.
SAFETY certainly is the main point.
-- John D.
As for stacked "full-caliber round balls" such as seen in a .410-bore, that couldn't be done with the 12-gauge in most guns chambered for a 12. I figure -- off the top of my head, nothing scientific -- that a minimal 12-gauge "full-bore size" ball would be something like the .690" (musket-ball) some people (like me) use as a close-up 12 gauge slug. A .690 ball is almost 1oz. right on, I mean about 437 grains. TWO of those would be 2oz. or 874 grains. Three would be impossible in a 12, but not in a .410-bore as you said.
Besides two .690 "full caliber bore balls" not even physically fitting in any 12-gauge shotcup -- that I know of -- I don't think there is even any load data for 2oz. loads...unless you are using 3.5" shells that is...and the gun in question would need to have a 3.5" chamber of course. Mine are 3" chambers, so this would be impossible to do in my two shotguns.
I suppose you could forget the "modern" shotcups and load them the old way -- fiber wads, over-powder-cards, over-shot-cards, etc., if that would make more room in the case for TWO "full-caliber bore balls" of .690 caliber -- but I never learned how to use those components since when I started doing this, the "modern" shotcups had arrived on the scene.
Besides, Maser just wanted to recycle his .451 balls in his 12 gauge, not do anything more, so his buying other larger-sized ball (.690) or slug moulds is not likely.
Well, if worse comes to worst, he won't be able to use his .451 mould for anything except fishing line split-shot sinkers -- or possibly some "gallery-loads" in a .45ACP revolver (which he probably doesn't have anyway) -- but I hope his researching the "jammed balls blow up shotgun and shooter" issue will turn up something more positive for him.
SAFETY certainly is the main point.
-- John D.
the possum
New member
Yes, John, I should have clarified that I was only talking about the .410 when I mentioned multiple full caliber balls. Just that my point was you can go real big or (relatively to the bore) real small, but with most bores there's a size somewhere inbetween that could cause problems. I don't know where that is with 12 gauge, but it would be wise to check out the phenomenon before trying it.
banditt007
New member
has 3, .6" balls in a 3" 12 gauge load.
this is about as hairy as you are going to get IMO they are also not soft lead.
i am unsure of reloading data but i've seen a couple of companies that sell 3" 12 gauge turkey loads w/ 2oz of shot in them.
cloudcroft
New member
banditt007,
Interesting...thanks for the pic.
During the Civil War, one load used in muskets (smooth-bores, like shotguns) was the "Buck and Ball" made up of 4 projectiles: One .69 caliber ball and three buckshot (not sure of exact size). Good only at close range of course, used by both sides. I have seen it written that its use was uncommon, but IIRC, there is a monument at Gettysburg dedicated solely to the Buck and Ball load...it was that important.
Anyway, although my guns have 3" chambers, I only use 2.75" shells in it. I don't even HAVE any 3" ammo or hulls.
For my needs -- such as home defense repelling boarders, Sasquatch attacks while hiking in the woods or sudden confrontatons with Zombies -- 2.75 inchers do well enough...and the recoil is more manageable.
The only multiple shot *I* use is buckshot (factory ammo only) and some birdshot (reloads)...the rest are single-projectiles such as the musket ball and (soon) cast Lyman slugs.
The birdshot is for hunting, the rest is for SD.
-- John D.
Interesting...thanks for the pic.
During the Civil War, one load used in muskets (smooth-bores, like shotguns) was the "Buck and Ball" made up of 4 projectiles: One .69 caliber ball and three buckshot (not sure of exact size). Good only at close range of course, used by both sides. I have seen it written that its use was uncommon, but IIRC, there is a monument at Gettysburg dedicated solely to the Buck and Ball load...it was that important.
Anyway, although my guns have 3" chambers, I only use 2.75" shells in it. I don't even HAVE any 3" ammo or hulls.
For my needs -- such as home defense repelling boarders, Sasquatch attacks while hiking in the woods or sudden confrontatons with Zombies -- 2.75 inchers do well enough...and the recoil is more manageable.
The only multiple shot *I* use is buckshot (factory ammo only) and some birdshot (reloads)...the rest are single-projectiles such as the musket ball and (soon) cast Lyman slugs.
The birdshot is for hunting, the rest is for SD.
-- John D.
biglabsrule
New member
Do they commercialy sell the .6" triball ammo in the picture above, or do you have to hand load that? I'd like to have a few of them shells next to my night stand...
banditt007
New member
http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html
they sell it all ready to go commercially, as well as other very nice slug rounds. All their ammo uses heat treated hard cast lead. The loads are tailored towards 'dangerous game' and are designed to not fragment/break apart like normal soft lead slugs. They are ment to smash through bone and keep penetrating. The Tri-ball load above is rather impressive, especially if you look up how well it patterns.
Check out www.shotgunworld.com there is a forum on there just about dixie slugs w/ the owner of the company there to answer any and all questions.
they sell it all ready to go commercially, as well as other very nice slug rounds. All their ammo uses heat treated hard cast lead. The loads are tailored towards 'dangerous game' and are designed to not fragment/break apart like normal soft lead slugs. They are ment to smash through bone and keep penetrating. The Tri-ball load above is rather impressive, especially if you look up how well it patterns.
Check out www.shotgunworld.com there is a forum on there just about dixie slugs w/ the owner of the company there to answer any and all questions.
banditt007 said:
Yeah, I bought a couple boxes of them 2 oz. 12 gauge turkey loads from sportsmansguide.com. They are a real handful to shoot and aren't a shell you would want to shoot all day.
Them tri-ball shells look pretty cool. I definatly need to try them out. Probly wouldn't be a good choice for HD because of the obvious over penetration. Would be a great close range big game hunting shell though.