.45 Winchester Magnum

V

vlavalle

Inactive
I read thru most of the old responses regarding the 45 Winchester Magnum forum from a few years back, and I too never heard of this ammo, so I was quite interested in what everyone had to say. I noticed one person mentioned a Ruger Blackhawk, and that really caught my attention. I have a Ruger 45 Colt Stainless Flattop Convertible New Model Blackhawk. It shoots both 45 Long Colt, and with a secondary cylinder also can shoot 45 ACP ammo.

So, my question is this: can anyone tell me if I can shoot the 45 Winchester Magnum ammo in my Ruger 45 using my standard cylinder (the one for the 45 Colt ammo)??? I have been shooting magnum levels of 45 Colt ammo recently, those mainly made by Buffalo Bore (3G and 3C Ammo, both of which deliver over 1400 fps muzzle velocity). The kick on these, especially the 3C is quite a bit! But from I read here in this past .45 Winchester Magnum forum, the 45 Winchester Magnum loads are less than the Buffalo Bore +P ammo. So, how is this cartridge different enough that it won't work in my Ruger? This ammo is described as a stretched out 45 ACP, which sounds just like the 45 Long Colt ammo!

Also, I just ordered some ammo very similar to Buffallo Bore's 3B, a 300 gr bullet shot at 1300 fps, delivering 1126 ft lbs. The BB 3G delivers 1132 ft lbs with a 225 gr bullet, and the BB 3C delivers 1214 ft lbs with a 260 gr bullet.

I have a somewhat extensive ballistics Excel file with mainly hand gun ammo, but also some rifle and some military weapons ballistics. This file not only gives all the ballistics, but also where you can buy each online, including the cost per round.

Vincent
12-04-14
 
The .45 Win Mag is like a stretched out .45 ACP which means it is rimless.
There wouldn't be anything in the LC cylinder for a headspace stop, the LC is head spaced on the rim.

You could have your ACP cylinder rechambered for WM but then you would not be able to shoot ACPs.
 
Can't use your regular .45 Colt cylinder, that won't work.

As mentioned, you could have the .45 ACP cylinder reamed out for it, but that seems counter productive since .45 ACP is popular and part of what makes the convertible Blackhawks such a good deal, plus you'll get more power from the .45 Colt cylinder anyways compared to the .45 Win Mag.
 
The limiting factor would be the cylinder length. Not sure how long the cylinder is on a New Model Blackhawk, but the max length of a .45 Magnum round is 40 mm.
 
No, the .45 Colt cylinder won't work, for the reasons already mentioned (rimless case)

The .45ACP cylinder can be cut to take the .45 Win Mag, but as mentioned, you then loose the ability to shoot .45ACP.

The limiting factor would be the cylinder length. Not sure how long the cylinder is on a New Model Blackhawk, but the max length of a .45 Magnum round is 40 mm.
Click to expand...

Case length of the .45 Win Mag is 1.198". Case length of the .45 Colt is 1.285". There is plenty of room (length) in the ACP cylinder.

For maximum versatility, you need to get a 3rd cylinder, (.45acp) have it fitted to your gun, and cut for .45 Win Mag.

There is, however, no point to doing that, unless you have another gun in .45Win Mag you are already feeding. .45 Win Mag ammo is hard to find, and expensive, and really doesn't deliver anything you can't get from a "Ruger only" level .45 Colt loading when being shot out of a Ruger Blackhawk.
 
I have been shooting magnum levels of 45 Colt ammo recently, those mainly made by Buffalo Bore (3G and 3C Ammo, both of which deliver over 1400 fps muzzle velocity). The kick on these, especially the 3C is quite a bit! But from I read here in this past .45 Winchester Magnum forum, the 45 Winchester Magnum loads are less than the Buffalo Bore +P ammo. So, how is this cartridge different enough that it won't work in my Ruger? This ammo is described as a stretched out 45 ACP, which sounds just like the 45 Long Colt ammo!
Click to expand...
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING IMMEDIATELY!!!!!! YOU ARE USING LOADS THAT ARE UNSAFE FOR YOUR REVOLVER!!!!!

Your Ruger is a mid-frame and is not safe for "Ruger only" loads, which is exactly what you're doing. It is at its limit with 21kpsi .45ACP loads. .45WinMag is way over its limit.

From Buffalo Bore:
"These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are safe in all LARGE FRAME Ruger revolvers.
(includes Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, all pre-2005 Vaquero, Bisley, Redhawk)"

Therein lies the problem. The .45 convertible "flat-top" is not made on the large frame.

I can't believe no one noticed this before now. Where are the TFL revolver experts???
 
The limiting factor would be the cylinder length.
Click to expand...
Wrong! The limiting factor is the 40k CUP pressure the .45 Winchester Magnum operates at. Even the large frame guns should be held to no more than 32k.
 
Jack is absolutely right. You are flirting with disaster! If you want to shoot the Buffalo Bore loads trade in that flat top and buy the large frame Blackhawk convertible.
 
"Wrong! The limiting factor is the 40k CUP pressure the .45 Winchester Magnum operates at. Even the large frame guns should be held to no more than 32k."

Yeah, you're absolutely correct. I didn't have pressure specs in front of me when I posted that, and was going only from a dimensional standpoint.
 
Wrong! The limiting factor is the 40k CUP pressure the .45 Winchester Magnum operates at. Even the large frame guns should be held to no more than 32k.
Click to expand...

When referring to large frame guns I don't know if the S&W N frame is included.
I agree that I personally would not want to take an N frame in 45 caliber up to 32,000 PSI, however they are being converted to shoot the 460 Rowland which list a pressure of 40,000 PSI.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
How would you stop the remaining rounds from letting the bullets creep forward under recoil without a good crimp? 45 win mag won't allow case mouth crimp without causing head space issues.
 
45 win mag won't allow case mouth roll crimp without causing head space issues.
Click to expand...

Fixed that for ya! ;)

If you are shooting the .45 Win Mag in a revolver, you MIGHT have an issue, but a properly applied taper crimp should prevent bullet creep in the cylinder under recoil.
 
I had a thread on this a while back, & have an old model ( large frame ) Blackhawk, that was originally chambered in 30 Carbine, that I put a 45 caliber barrel on, & fit 2 cylinders, one in 45 Colt, one in 45 ACP... I got another cylinder that I thought about boring to 45 Win Mag...

the pressure is an issue as listed above, & my old cylinder ( 357 magnum ) is of normal 357 magnum alloys... I think I could get by, with the pressure on the revolver, if I have the proper alloy for the cylinder, but I wouldn't feel comfortable using the older cylinder of unproven alloy...

I already load for 50 AE in a revolver, & brass can be taper crimped to hold a bullet, it may be a bit touchier in the higher pressure round, but I doubt much different than the 50 AE in reality...

however... right now anyway, I find that I rarely switch cylinders, I find the 45 Colt versatile enough, in this gun, I have a wide range of loads available... I tend to leave my adjustable sights set for higher pressure 45 Colt, as my CAS guns are set for lower pressure 45 Colt loads...
 
Thanks AMP, you read my mind ;) That would be one hell of a kinetic bullet puller without any roll crimp!
 
Old December 7, 2014,
I agree that I personally would not want to take an N frame in 45 caliber up to 32,000 PSI, however they are being converted to shoot the 460 Rowland which list a pressure of 40,000 PSI.
Click to expand...

I have blown up a lot of revolvers just to see what happens.
I have done it so many times, I can calculate and guess what it would take to blow up a revolver.
But I don't want the blowing up when I am not doing an experiment.
The S&W 25-2 getting reamed out to 460 Rowland, now for almost 15 years, amazes me.

0.061" ~ .064" to the outside
0.066" ~ .067" between chambers
inside diameter of ~ 0.485"

Oi, does that ever look like it is getting CLOSE to me...

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/revserv.htm

Different Clark
 
CLARK... what's your thought on the 45 Win Mag in a Blackhawk then ( or was that what you were saying in the previous post )

I'm not opposed to buying a chunk of better alloy, but it would be really nice if a 357 mag cylinder could be reamed, & the frame would take the pressure ???
 
SAAMI for 45 Colt is .486" chamber min, .480" brass max.
SAAMI for 45 WinMag is .481" chamber min, .476 brass max.

If you are not feeding a semi auto, you might ream the chambers for a lifetime supply of brass you bought, which which will be more like .468", so you could ream at .469". I have reamed a 45acp chamber at .469" because the brass springs back to that after it comes out of .467" Lee carbide die.

I don't have a 357 Blackhawk, but I would assume the cylinder is 1.725" like the 45 Colt.
The black hawk 45 Colt has chamber wall thickness:
0.071" ~ .074" to the outside
0.059" ~ .061" between chambers

The Blackhawk chamber is .486 ~ .487"
If that were .469" instead, the wall to the outside would get 0.0045" thicker [6% improvement] and between chambers .009" thicker [15% improvement]

The 45 WM OAL per sammi is 1.575" max.
The 45 WM OAL could be loaded in blackhawk to ~1.75" [11% improvement over all length, 5.5% less pressure with 250 gr bullets]

There is published data by Speer for the Blackhawk 45 Colt that I am estimating at 32 kpsi with Quickload, and the QL prediction is right on the money at 25 kpsi for velocity in my 45 Colt Uberti Cattleman with a similar powder and bullet combination.

45WM is registered at 40k c.u.p. with SAAMI.
That could be 40kpsi or 45kpsi, I dunno.

So my guess is that if you just put a 45WM SAAMI reamer in and put 45WM factory ammo the develops SAAMI max pressure, you will be stressing the blackhawk more than Speer published data for the blackhawk.
But if you cut tight chambers and make careful long handloads, you might get 45WM performance with Speer like stress.

But you would have to:
0) find a 357 mag blackhawk to sacrifice
1) Find a 45 barrel
2) Turn the barrel down to Ruger diameter
3) turn threads on the barrel
4) cut a forcing cone on the barrel
5) Drill and tap the barrel for the ejector shroud
6) dial in a chamber and ream it
7) dial in a chamber and ream it
8) dial in a chamber and ream it
9) dial in a chamber and ream it
10) dial in a chamber and ream it
11) dial in a chamber and ream it
12) FIND 45WM brass

I guess you could headspace off the mouth, so no half moons would be needed.

But that is so much work and effort. You could just shoot a 45 Colt blackhawk.
 
I have no idea why you would need a .357 Ruger for this..

IF the New Model Blackhawk convertible can take the pressure, (I don't know that it can, but I expect it might), lengthening the .45acp cylinder to take the .45Win Mag should be a simple operation.
 
A large frame Blackhawk is not going to blow at 40-45kpsi but you're cutting into your safety margin. There's also absolutely no good reason to do this as the .45LC will outperform the .45WM at less pressure.

Let us not forget that the OP referenced a mid-frame Blackhawk.
 
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