.45 Super - Best of both worlds?

D

David Scott

New member
I read an article recently on a Glock 21 converted to .45 Super. Seems to me that this round might satisfy both the "big bullet" fans and the "high velocity" fans. The round is dimensionally the same as .45 ACP, so I assume that conversions would only require a stronger barrell and springs, like the Glock. Anyone have experience with this round? Is it too loud and rough for compact autos? A SIG P245 Super sounds awful tempting....

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Dave
Deep in the Florida Swamps
 
> Seems to me that this round might satisfy both the "big bullet" fans and the "high velocity" fans.

The catch is that it still has to satisfy Isaac Newton, too. ;) Fast, heavy bullets mean lots of recoil.

I doubt that a SIG P245 in .45 Super is feasible. The reports that I've read indicate that compact pistols don't have enough slide mass to handle the .45 Super.
 
The only "stock" .45's that can handle .45 Super are made by H&K... the full size USP and the big time expensive Mk23. All others, fire at your own risk...



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.45 Super... Fat and FAST...

"No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprises of the civil authority" - Thomas Jefferson
 
Marketing...pure marketing. At least in practical terms, i.e. defensive and combat terms.

As for the fun of shooting large bore, fast rounds...I want one.

Erik
 
Now don't get me started David!

Have you been reading my posts? You actually have the audacity of suggesting a combination of one of, if not THE best type of handgun together with one of THE best new calibers?!..................................................................................Sounds like a winner to me too. ;)

Here's the theory:
1) 45 Super-excellent all around caliber. Best of BOTH worlds. High frontal area AND high velocity. Satisfies the high vel and Fackler crowd. Out of the right tube and with the right early expansion bullet, would likely be extremely effective against bad guys, and adequate (in right load and close range) for deer hunting.

2) Can use 45ACP barrel. Sure the 460 Roland pushes max 44 mag ballistics, leaving the Super in its wake, but then you've got to switch back and forth between the extra barrel that you had to buy and fit, (which is not available for Sigs). Supers outer dimensions are exactly similar to the ACP...
a)Same dies
b)Two calibers out of one barrel

3) The sturdy Sig Al alloy frames are made to take +p pressured ammo. A backfire can mangle any weapon, however if you avoid double charges, the fully supported chamber on Sigs helps. Frame battering should not be a problem as long as shooting of it is limited.

Problem:
1) I don't know how reliable the 245 would be since the company chose to ignore my advise to make a compact grip/ long barrelled 225 in 45 ACP. Since the think tank at SIGARMS decided to cut the muzzle, the slide length might not allow sufficient time to allow a new round to be chambered. Timing is everything. Short slide = quick cycle, maybe too quick for the Super. There are cooler Super loadings made for the Colt Commander, which might work better. Just have to spend the fortune the ammo costs to see. I'd use heavy recoil spring before trying it though.

2) Short barrel (3.9") = lower velocity.
Much of the ammos potential vel. would be lost as muzzle flash. It really needs a long tube to make use of all of the powder and be a good platform for the Super. The biggest increase will be that of recoil, if that matters. However, I'd be curious to see what the 165g warp speed loadings would cronograph out of the 4" barrel of the 245 as compared to a 5" 1911.
I don't want to discourage you. I'm actually very curious to see some results, but I got to be objective...as much as is humanly possible.

PS: Had SIG left the barrel long and the grip/trigger reach like the 225, I'd buy a couple of 245s.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
David; Go to Texas-ammo.com. They have the ammo and can give you good info on .45 super conversions and who does them. Glock 21's and S&W 4506's are popular conversions at around $350.00. Good Luck, j.s.
 
Robbie is the owner of Robar in Phoenix, Az. and invented the NP3 finish, a Teflon impregnated electroless nickel, for use on firearms. His company also offers a number of other refinishing options (like Rogard) and was the first to offer the grip reductions on Glock pistols. He is a good gunsmith and makes some very high grade counter sniper rifles based, I believe, on Remington 700 actions as well as .50 cal bolt guns. For more info try: www.robarguns.com

He is also an instructor at Thunder Ranch and a good shot with about any firearm. It is important that he teaches at Thunder Ranch because it is located in Mountain Home, Tx, not to far from the gunsmith at Ace Custom in Kerrville, Tx who worked out the bugs in the .45 Super and the fact that Magnaporting the pistol is apparently essential to the operation of the gun. I would guess that Robbie may have had some input into the development since he has spent time there and is committed to the gun and cartridge combination.

The post was in response to the question, 'Is it too loud and rough for compact autos' asked by David Scott, not you. So, as far as why should YOU care what Robbie carries, YOU shouldn't, but David might. Others of us don't know everything about .45 Supers in compact guns and try to learn from people more knowledgable than ourselves. Robbie knows more about this than I do and, judging by your response, more than you too, so I offered a source. I was only passing on what I know so that David might call Robar and ask Robbie about it himself. If he decides not to call, and David has the same level of expertise as Robbie, then he would most likely be able to handle a compact .45 Super. He might be able to even if he doesn't.

[This message has been edited by Jeff OTMG (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
Equalizer, I might note that the Rowland people say you can use 45acp dies for reloading the 460 Rowland, with some adjustments. And while on the subject of reloading, make sure you never use acp cases for super loads - big difference in the cases' strengths.
 
I will NEVER own a .45Super. #1 reason being that the ammo has the same exterior dimensions as .45ACP. It's not worth getting the ammo mixed up and blowing a gun up, endangering yourself, possibly others.

I say get yourself a .45Winchester Magnum if you want a hot .45 semiauto......
 
Futo,

Very good point. I did leave out the safety issue. This is a very good reason to always use 45 Super in a fully supported chamber, although someone far more knowledgable about the caliber than me makes conversions for unsupported now too.

Jeff,

I see that you took time to address the issue concerning Robbie Barkman far more than I have. You sir, have prompted me to call and ask him details about the caliber and gun combination. I plan to do so next week. He sounds like he might know a good deal about it.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
Robbie Barrkman and Springfield Armory are the only licensed gunmakers for .45 Supers.

Since it is a proprietary cartridge, it is necessary for an approved conversion kit from Ace Handguns to be used for any conversions. If you are interested in safety and liability.

All .45 Supers will fire .45 ACP without modification.

One other .45 ACP handgun is safe to fire out of the box with .45 Super. The S&W 625.

Hope this helps. Walt
 
I couldn't find Robbie Barkman's number today, so I went to another man who knows his stuff on a similar cartridge, albeit HOTTER.
Talked to Johnny Rowland at length. Without going into lots of detail, he said something very interesting along this topic. The .460 Rowland shoots reliably from the Commander length barrel, even with the same recoil spring as the guvt model! A compensator helps delay the slide retraction until the bullet leaves the barrel. This is one hot puppy. Top end 44 Mag plus ballistics. He confirmed that with his barrel, you can shoot 45 ACP as well as 460 R. You just can't shoot 460 R from ACP barrel. Don't know if its available for Glocks though. You'll have to check Clark website, as they do Supers and Rowland's magnum.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
Equalizer, Robar is 623-581-2648 if you are still interested. Also Ace Custom has a web page but I do not have the address, you might try a search engine. Again, David was asking about the Officer size gun and Robbie is the only person I know who has one and that it works.
 
Equalizer:

Thanks for the information on Robbie. I am familiar with Robar, but never had a need to do any business with them. I quit reading the gun rags a little while back, as I found them overly simplistic and sophomoric.

Everything I've heard about Robar has been good. BTW, I shoot Glocks, primarily, so have no need for a good gunsmith.
 
Jeff OTMG,

Thanks alot for the number, Jeff. I called and talked to a tech there today. He didn't seem to know why his bosses Officer Model worked w/Supers other than to say that he had to try different springs. He said it didn't have a compensator. They don't normally do compensators although they can. The Super package he said, consists of the standard lowering/flaring ejection port, cutting slide for reverse plug, and dropping in a double recoil spring (I'm guessing like Springco and the others). The package does not include a barrel. Oh yea, they also modify the firing pin. He says that the difference between ACP and Super is like night and day. The Supers are reported to have the sharp snapping recoil like a 357 mag., instead of the slower push of the ACP. That's about it.

David,

One last thing to above. He didn't think that shooting a moderate amount of Supers would damage an aluminum frame. Of course wear would be substantial with extended shooting, but not if it were occasional. It MIGHT work in the 245, but I'd have to get one and experiment with different spring systems to know. Probably need to go to a stronger firing pin spring to prevent smear too. Timing would be the biggest issue with the SIG and Glock I'd think.

WalterGAll,

I agree about the magazines. I do think he probably gets lots of free write ups because he does good work, since he doesn't spend the many thousands on the full page ads like so many do.
You asked "Why should I care what he carries?"
I think I understand you to mean, why should you be concerned with what some celebrety or VIP carries? I guess it really doesn't matter to most since CC is a personal matter. I happen to be interested because he is well respected in the 1911 field and if he got a little Officers to work reliably with that caliber, there must be more to the high velocity rumor than I've been led to believe over the years. That doesn't mean that I want what he carries. Of course, I see that you don't either. I can understand where you are comming from and glad you got a gun that needs no modifications. I'm going for broke this time, so my new one is going to have lots of them :) .

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)



[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited March 20, 2000).]
 
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