.45 S&W cartridge?
- Thread starter tl
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
It was developed in the early 1870s, along with the No. 3 and No. 3 Schofield revolvers, as a possible US military cartridge in competition with the .45 Colt/Colt SAA.
It was slightly shorter than the Colt cartridge due to the shorter frame on the S&W No. 3, had a bit bigger rim to ensure extraction in the S&W revolver, and was a bit less powerful.
The military never adopted the S&W formally, but did purchase and issue a few thousand.
Because the Colt & S&W could both use the S&W cartridge, but the S&W couldn't use the Colt round, the military did adopt and issue the .45 S&W round for many years.
It was slightly shorter than the Colt cartridge due to the shorter frame on the S&W No. 3, had a bit bigger rim to ensure extraction in the S&W revolver, and was a bit less powerful.
The military never adopted the S&W formally, but did purchase and issue a few thousand.
Because the Colt & S&W could both use the S&W cartridge, but the S&W couldn't use the Colt round, the military did adopt and issue the .45 S&W round for many years.
Steven Mace
New member
.45 Smith & Wesson - a.k.a .45 S&W Schofield
Historical Notes: This cartridge was introduced in 1875 for the Smith & Wesson Schofield revolver. This revolver was adopted by the U.S. Army in that year and used until 1892 when it, and the 45 Colt Army revolver, were replaced by the Colt Army & Navy Model in 38-caliber. Commercial 45 S&W ammunition was loaded continuously until about 1940 and was reintroduced about 1997 by Black Hills Ammunition, in response to demands from Cowboy Action Shooters for a superior reduced-power 45-caliber cartridge. Some authorities believe Gen. George A. Custer used a Schofield revolver at the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
General Comments: The Smith & Wesson Schofield revolver was a single-action, hinged-frame type. It employed a special, heavy barrel latch designed by Gen. Schofield, hence the name. The cylinder of this revolver was not long enough to accept the 45 Colt cartridge, so a shorter round was designed. In addition, to improve extraction, rim diameter was enlarged slightly. Later, to simplify supply contingencies, a 45-caliber cartridge designed with a rim to fit both 45 Colt-chambered revolvers and 45 S&W-chambered revolvers was loaded by government arsenals. A similar commercial loading eventually called the 45 Colt Government followed. This cartridge was used in both the Schofield Model and the Colt Army Model. 45 S&W ammunition can be used in most 45 Colt revolvers, but the reverse is not true. Although the Colt single-action Army revolver is the one always depicted as the universal sidearm of the old West, the S&W was quite popular. These old guns were made for blackpowder, so heavy smokeless powder charges should never be used. This cartridge and handgun are again in production with Black Hills Ammunition supplying loads that duplicate the original and Navy Arms and others making the replica revolver.
The .45 S&W Schofield is listed as having a case length of 1.10" and an overall cartridge length of 1.43". Cases can be made from the .45 Colt by trimming case length. The rim diameter may also need to be thinned to .05" (on some revolvers). Full length sizing would also be required.
Reference: Cartridges Of The World - 9th Edition, by Frank C. Barnes and edited by M.L. McPherson. Also, The Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions, by John J. Donnelly.
Hope this helps!
Steve Mace
Historical Notes: This cartridge was introduced in 1875 for the Smith & Wesson Schofield revolver. This revolver was adopted by the U.S. Army in that year and used until 1892 when it, and the 45 Colt Army revolver, were replaced by the Colt Army & Navy Model in 38-caliber. Commercial 45 S&W ammunition was loaded continuously until about 1940 and was reintroduced about 1997 by Black Hills Ammunition, in response to demands from Cowboy Action Shooters for a superior reduced-power 45-caliber cartridge. Some authorities believe Gen. George A. Custer used a Schofield revolver at the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
General Comments: The Smith & Wesson Schofield revolver was a single-action, hinged-frame type. It employed a special, heavy barrel latch designed by Gen. Schofield, hence the name. The cylinder of this revolver was not long enough to accept the 45 Colt cartridge, so a shorter round was designed. In addition, to improve extraction, rim diameter was enlarged slightly. Later, to simplify supply contingencies, a 45-caliber cartridge designed with a rim to fit both 45 Colt-chambered revolvers and 45 S&W-chambered revolvers was loaded by government arsenals. A similar commercial loading eventually called the 45 Colt Government followed. This cartridge was used in both the Schofield Model and the Colt Army Model. 45 S&W ammunition can be used in most 45 Colt revolvers, but the reverse is not true. Although the Colt single-action Army revolver is the one always depicted as the universal sidearm of the old West, the S&W was quite popular. These old guns were made for blackpowder, so heavy smokeless powder charges should never be used. This cartridge and handgun are again in production with Black Hills Ammunition supplying loads that duplicate the original and Navy Arms and others making the replica revolver.
The .45 S&W Schofield is listed as having a case length of 1.10" and an overall cartridge length of 1.43". Cases can be made from the .45 Colt by trimming case length. The rim diameter may also need to be thinned to .05" (on some revolvers). Full length sizing would also be required.
Reference: Cartridges Of The World - 9th Edition, by Frank C. Barnes and edited by M.L. McPherson. Also, The Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions, by John J. Donnelly.
Hope this helps!
Steve Mace
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
Good information, Mr. Mace - -
- - I'm a little surprised you didn't go ahead and give specifications for the cartridge other than measurements;
Off the top of my head--My copy of Cartridges Of The World is at home, and I'm at the office - - bullet was a 230 gr LRN or LRNFP, at a velocity of some 800 fps from the seven to 7-1/2 barrel. Very much like modern .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim.
You can size with .45 Colt dies, but would need to crimp with ACP/Auto Rim dies. I think the .45 Colt shell holder would work, but you might have to buy a dedicated shell holder for the thinner-rimmed case.
The cases may certainly be made up from .45 Colt brass, but this is no longer necessary. One may either reload the excellent Black Hills ammo, or purchase new brass direct from StarLine. I bought 100 just to load up some reduced loads for my S&W Mountain Gun.
Best,
Johnny
- - I'm a little surprised you didn't go ahead and give specifications for the cartridge other than measurements;
Off the top of my head--My copy of Cartridges Of The World is at home, and I'm at the office - - bullet was a 230 gr LRN or LRNFP, at a velocity of some 800 fps from the seven to 7-1/2 barrel. Very much like modern .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim.
You can size with .45 Colt dies, but would need to crimp with ACP/Auto Rim dies. I think the .45 Colt shell holder would work, but you might have to buy a dedicated shell holder for the thinner-rimmed case.
The cases may certainly be made up from .45 Colt brass, but this is no longer necessary. One may either reload the excellent Black Hills ammo, or purchase new brass direct from StarLine. I bought 100 just to load up some reduced loads for my S&W Mountain Gun.
Best,
Johnny
Thanks to all for the information. I like the looks of this revolver, but probably a bit too specialized and pricey to ever find a home with me. It would be a great experience to shoot one, though. Interesting that S&W went back to their roots on this one.
Not to start a semantics debate, but I recall seeing a comment somewhere that this could be considered not a reproduction since S&W holds the original patents on the design; just a slight gap in the production cycle
.
Not to start a semantics debate, but I recall seeing a comment somewhere that this could be considered not a reproduction since S&W holds the original patents on the design; just a slight gap in the production cycle
.Mike Irwin
Staff
Well, the original patents on the Schofield technology expired oh, 100 years ago or so.
According to COTW, there were two common blackpowder loads for the .45 S&W.
The first used a 230-gr. lead bullet at a muzzle velocity of 730 fps, for 276 ft. lbs. of energy. I THINK this was the military load, but I'm not certain.
The second was a 250-gr. lead bullet at 710 fps. for 283 ft lbs of energy.
The original Colt military loads used a 255 gr. lead bullet at about 810 fps, for 420 ft. lbs of energy.
Quite a difference.
According to COTW, there were two common blackpowder loads for the .45 S&W.
The first used a 230-gr. lead bullet at a muzzle velocity of 730 fps, for 276 ft. lbs. of energy. I THINK this was the military load, but I'm not certain.
The second was a 250-gr. lead bullet at 710 fps. for 283 ft lbs of energy.
The original Colt military loads used a 255 gr. lead bullet at about 810 fps, for 420 ft. lbs of energy.
Quite a difference.
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
Gap in production - -
True enough, I guess. That's what Colt claimed when they introduced their modern line of cap & ball revolvers in, I think, 1971. Announcement said something to the effect, "This is a genuine Colt Navy revolver, and serial numbers pick up where production ended in 1873."
Sure wish S&W/Safe-T-Hammer would refute the infamous agreement so we faithful can end the boycott. There are a couple of newly-introduced S&W models I'd sure like to own. But cannot.
Best,
Johnny
True enough, I guess. That's what Colt claimed when they introduced their modern line of cap & ball revolvers in, I think, 1971. Announcement said something to the effect, "This is a genuine Colt Navy revolver, and serial numbers pick up where production ended in 1873."
Sure wish S&W/Safe-T-Hammer would refute the infamous agreement so we faithful can end the boycott. There are a couple of newly-introduced S&W models I'd sure like to own. But cannot.
Best,
Johnny
Mike said, "The original Colt military loads used a 255 gr. lead bullet at about 810 fps, for 420 ft. lbs of energy."
Not trying to give you a hard time but I've done a bunch of research on this cartridge and gun and you're about 100 fps off. The original loading for the 45 Colt round was 40g of FFg behind a 255g RNFP bullet of 1-20 (tin to lead). In the first SAA (7.5" barrel) it produces 910 fps. I have duplicated this load in some unfired balloon head cases I found at a gunshow and fired them in original 1st Gen SAA's. The average for five shots was 914 fps from the 7.5" barrel. In the 5.5" barrel it gave an average of 894 fps and in the 4.75" the average was 864 fps.
I amuses me to see these macho Cowboy Action Shooters loading 185g 45 bullets at 700 fps. The real load would bring tears to their eyes, and I'm not just talking about the smoke or smell.
Not trying to give you a hard time but I've done a bunch of research on this cartridge and gun and you're about 100 fps off. The original loading for the 45 Colt round was 40g of FFg behind a 255g RNFP bullet of 1-20 (tin to lead). In the first SAA (7.5" barrel) it produces 910 fps. I have duplicated this load in some unfired balloon head cases I found at a gunshow and fired them in original 1st Gen SAA's. The average for five shots was 914 fps from the 7.5" barrel. In the 5.5" barrel it gave an average of 894 fps and in the 4.75" the average was 864 fps.
I amuses me to see these macho Cowboy Action Shooters loading 185g 45 bullets at 700 fps. The real load would bring tears to their eyes, and I'm not just talking about the smoke or smell.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Dave,
Going by the figures in COTW, 7th edition for velocity on the .45 Colt.
Going by the figures in COTW, 7th edition for velocity on the .45 Colt.