45 ACP with TiteGroup and HP-38

[mgulino]

Loaded up some 45ACPs this evening. Using Berry's plated 230gr RN atop 4.2 and 4.5 grains of TG and 4.5 grains of HP-38. Well below published max loads.
The published COL was 1.200; however, this put the case mouth at the ogive. I backed the COL to 1.210 and this gave me just enough for a taper crimp.
Planning on trying them out this weekend in a Kimber 1911. Will post results.

 

[dshack]

I've also been loading the Berrys 45acp 230gr RN, but I've been using a COL of 1.250, which is Berry's published COL for the plated RN. I haven't had any problems with this length. Berry's site has their 230gr HHP bullet COL listed at 1.200

My Hornady book shows their 230gr RN COL at 1.210, likewise the Lyman manual shows the Speer 230gr RN COL at 1.275

I would be inclined to go with Berry's Bullet recommended COL at 1.250

 

[mgulino]

Thanks. I may pull them back out to 1.250. I only loaded about 20 so it should be a quick adjustment. Thanks for the chart too. I saved that for future reference with 9mm and 357 Mag.

 

[Nick_C_S]

mgulino, did you perform a plunk test with your Kimber's barrel to determine the correct OAL for your Berry's 230's?

That's really the best way to do it.

I have a Kimber 1911 (and others) and its chamber is a touch short; or at least, the barrel lands seem to be really close to the headspace ridge.

Either way, it is highly likely that something in the 1.220-ish neighborhood may be a better OAL. That said, if I was in your position, I would still be inclined to just go ahead and test your ammo as is with the 1.210 OAL. That is, assuming you have a chronograph. It would still be worthy to know how they perform as is. Mean time, I'd load up another batch at the longer OAL, against which to compare. Data is always good.

Getting to the propellants: Both TiteGroup and HP-38 are excellent choices to make consistent range shooters with 230's. TiteGroup runs notoriously hot, so if you were running lead bullets, I'd steer you to the HP-38. But as is, either will make good ammo for you. Because it's so energetic (runs hot), TiteGroup is better suited for plated bullets. For basic plated range fodder; TiteGroup is an excellent choice - really tough to do better. IMO, that's TiteGroup's wheelhouse application(s).

Addendum:

Nick_C_S – I do not have a chronograph…probably my next shooting accessory purchase.

You told me in another thread that you don't have a chronograph. I recommend getting one. Even without, you can still gleen information by testing your ammo with both OAL's.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I load that same Berry's 230-grain bullet over 5.3 grains of Winchester 231 (which is the same as HP-38). I use 1.270" as my overall length -- I think 1.210" is too short, but I'll review my measurements to confirm. Going from memory, my velocity was in the upper 700s -- it was a LOT slower than expected, since 5.3 grains of Win 231 is supposed to be the maximum. The Hornady on-line loading data say that should produce 834 fps -- but that's based on a COAL of only 1.200".

That said, what's the theoretical shortest COAL for that particular bullet? The case is (per SAAMI spec, not measured -- we're doing theoretical here) is 0.898" long.

One of the reloader guys on the M1911.org forum started a project awhile back to collect and compile information on actual bullet dimensions. His data don't list just the bullet length, they also break out the body (the straight part) from the "nose" (the part after the ogive starts to curve). To get a theoretical minimum COAL, we would add the case length to the "nose" length. For that Berry's bullet, his data shows the different "nose" lengths, contributed by three different people. The longest is 0.400", the shortest is 0.367".

Using those numbers, we come up with theoretical COALs of:
.898+.367 = 1.265
.898+.400 = 1.298

I'm inclined to go with the 1.265. However, I was already loading them to a COAL of 1.270, which I had arrived at by the unscientific method of measuring ten factory Winchester USA rounds and averaging their length. That came out to 1.270 and I've been using it ever since.

If anyone is interested in the individual bullet data for .45 ACP, the guy on M1911.org posted his spreadsheet on Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...uItM0glf7wjhd8/edit?hl=en&hl=en#gid=519572970

For what it's worth, Berry's says to load that bullet to 1.260".

Western Powder includes data specifically for that bullet, and they show loading it to 1.237"
http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/WesternLoadGuide1-2016_Web.pdf
Pages 15 & 16

I would be inclined to go with Berry's Bullet recommended COL at 1.250

The page you linked to only shows the SAAMI maximum COAL, which they correctly list as 1.275".

 

[markr6754]

I loaded that same Berry’s 230gr CPRN over 5.4gr HP-38 at 1.220” shot out of my Kimber Master Carry Pro. One of my favorite loads so far for 45ACP. I don’t have a chronograph, and only shoot indoors, so I can’t say how fast they run, but they cycle clean, put pukas in paper, and that’s pretty much what I want from them.

 

[mgulino]

Nick_C_S
No, I have not done a plunk test. Plan on loading a dummy round and checking this weekend. Yes, I have just purchased a chrono. Should be here in a couple of days.

Others
My concern is seating the Berry's plated 230 too deeply and causing over pressure. Thanks for all the input.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...at the ogive..." Forget the ogive. It doesn't matter. The OAL with a taper crimp does matter. Said crimp is not dependent of OAL. It is dependent on case length. Rarely becomes an issue though.
"...backed the COL to 1.210..." That's an increase in OAL. Good enough though. The SAMMI max OAL is 2.275". Minimum is 1.190". And that's measured from the end of the bullet to the flat of the case with no ogives involved. Ogives apply to the unnecessary off-the-lands stuff for rifle ammo, not hand guns.
Your loads are mid range loads. They'll be fine. You really need to work up the load using the max OAL given in your manual.

 

[Nick_C_S]

I load that same Berry's 230-grain bullet over 5.3 grains of Winchester 231 (which is the same as HP-38). I use 1.270" as my overall length.

I thought maybe I had used some Berry's 230 RN's some time back; so I decided to do some digging in my records. Turns out, I have.

My set recipe was 5.6 grains of HP-38; so they were on the stout side (would be pointless and ill-advised to go stronger). OAL was 1.265." Chronographed at 820 f/s through my Kimber.

Hope that gives some further reference on both the OAL and the charge weight.

 

[mgulino]

Nick_C_S
My chronograph has arrived (Caldwell), but I probably won't get the chance to use it for a couple of weekends. Have to go out of town on a business trip.
If I use my spot, I can manage about a 65 yard shot. If I go out to dad's farm, I can manage at least 100 yards. Either way, I plan on setting it up to measure several calibers, both handgun and rifle. I also want to compare commercial to handloads.
Do you recommend using a tripod or setting atop a sturdy table?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

My set recipe was 5.6 grains of HP-38; so they were on the stout side (would be pointless and ill-advised to go stronger). OAL was 1.265." Chronographed at 820 f/s through my Kimber.

The basic, "standard power" .45 ACP ball cartridge runs 835 fps with a 230-grain bullet, so your loads aren't really "stout," they're just approaching full-power level.

 

[Nick_C_S]

The basic, "standard power" .45 ACP ball cartridge runs 835 fps with a 230-grain bullet, so your loads aren't really "stout," they're just approaching full-power level.

By "on the stout side," I was speaking in terms of pressure; not velocity. I should have been more clear. Apologies.

QuickLoad has the recipe (230 RN; 5.6gn HP-38) exceeding +P; although I suspect the bullet jumps crimp and the predicted peak pressure never occurs. Just a guess.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

By "on the stout side," I was speaking in terms of pressure; not velocity. I should have been more clear. Apologies.

QuickLoad has the recipe (230 RN; 5.6gn HP-38) exceeding +P; although I suspect the bullet jumps crimp and the predicted peak pressure never occurs. Just a guess.

I'm fairly certain you're actually nowhere near peak pressure. The reason is that the Berry's plated 230-grain bullet is a short bullet.

Awhile back, a couple of the people on the M1911.org forum started a project to compile physical data on different bullets. I was interested, because almost nobody (including Berry's) has load data for Berry's bullets, and that's what I use. Berry's says to use mid-range data for [now I don't recall if they said lead or jacketed] bullets. When I did that, using data from the Hodgdon web site, the velocities I measured were nowhere near what I expected. So I wanted to know why not.

First off, the Hodgdon data call for a COAL of 1.200", which I think is too short for reliable feeding in a 1911. But I also wanted to see about differences in actual bullets, and the M1911.org project gave me what I wanted. That Berry's bullet must be popular, because they had four different people submit their measurements. And, of course, they didn't agree -- they ranged from .634" to .640", with an average of .63675".

Pulls from Winchester USA ran .640 to .649. Zero Bullets' FMJ ran .653" to .655". Precision Delta ran .646" to .650".

So I think when loading the Berry's 230-grain bullet to an overall length derived from data for some other bullet, you actually have a bit of additional residual volume under the bullet that lowers pressure (and velocity).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...uItM0glf7wjhd8/edit?hl=en&hl=en#gid=519572970

 

[Nick_C_S]

The reason is that the Berry's plated 230-grain bullet is a short bullet.

I think it is. I suspect Speer's RN is too - which is why their starting charge weight is the same 5.6 grains that I used.

Pulls from Winchester USA ran .640 to .649. Zero Bullets' FMJ ran .653" to .655". Precision Delta ran .646" to .650".

My notes show that the Berry's I had calipered at .645 - rather short.

you actually have a bit of additional residual volume under the bullet that lowers pressure (and velocity).

Yeah. It's likely roomy inside those cases - that slows burn rate, drops peak pressure - as you stated. I did a re-crunch of the QuickLoad program with the more accurate bullet data (I just mocked it up real quick last time). Peak pressure came down, but I still got just a touch over +P (23.5 Kpsi). But I agree, it's not likely reaching that kind of pressure in reality. But I will tell ya that it's pretty spunky round.

I bought 500 of the Berry's 230 and pretty much loaded them all at once. I still have about 150 loaded rounds in my inventory. As I remember, they were a pretty firm shooting round. There is likely enough headroom to increase the charge weight; but I'll still hold to the notion that if I want to drive a 230 any harder, I'll move to an intermediate propellant (Unique, Power Pistol, etc.).

 

[Aguila Blanca]

My notes show that the Berry's I had calipered at .645 - rather short.

That got me curious, because it's not in line with what others have reported. So I just went down to the laboratory of doom and diet cola and measured ten of the Berry's 230-grain plated round nose bullets. Seven of the ten were .640 on the nose. Two were .639, and one was .641. The average of the ten is .6399"

I'm glad to know that I'm not in danger of blowing up either myself or my pistol loading them with 5.3 grains of Win 231, but I'm not interested in pushing them any faster. In fact, once I use up the bullets I have on hand I may change exclusively to Berry's 185-grain round nose, hollow base bullet and just make up "geezer loads."