I have carried a variety of small frame autos and revolvers over the years as concealed carry. Very little of the time can I wear a belt holster or a shoulder holster and i am of that waist size that an inside the waist holster is not comfortable nor practical with most of the waist size pants that i wear (in other words, i am not going to buy all new pants just so they will be loose enough to carry an inside holster). That being the case, I usually carry in my waistband (without a holster) when I am wearing a shirt that will cover it or if wearing a coat in a zippered inside slat pocket or outside snap pocket. I have found that a Walther PPK is exactly the size that works well in waist or my pockets for weight and concealment. However, after reading a lot of your posts and talking to a friend of mine who is a former police chief (he had an informate who was riding in the back seat of a narcotic's officers's car, grab the officer's gun offthe seat, shoot at the officer that was returning to the car and shoot at my buddy through the back glass. My buddy returned fire with his off duty PPK and he found out real quick that car doors and seats pretty well make a .380 useless) so I believe that I want to switch to either a 45 that is virtually the same dimensions and weight as the PPK (if one exists) or to a higher capacity .380 of the same or less dimensions and weight- at least I will be able to get off more rounds with the hi-cap gun that way. MY QUESTIONS ARE: 1. Is there a 45 that is the smme size and weight (or very very close to) a PPK and 2. If no is answer to #1, would a 13 shot Berreta ally frame (I think a Mod.84F??) be adequate.
45 acp vs .380 concealed carry
- Thread starter gun&knife
- Start date
I recommend against simply buying a higher capacity version of a pistol that fires a round you have little confidence in. It's not a good idea or mindset to be thinking that you'll have the chance, time , oppurtunity, to squeeze off a barrage of smaller rounds, in lieu of getting a round you feel more comfortable with. I am not saying the .380 is useless, but your post seemed to indicate that you'd feel more comfortable in something more potent.
The small Kahr or the small glocks might be worth looking at as they are very small, and pack a 9mm, or a .40 punch.
The small Kahr or the small glocks might be worth looking at as they are very small, and pack a 9mm, or a .40 punch.
Mark IV Series 80
New member
It sounds as though you are more concerned about being able to penetrate auto bodies and glass.
More rounds in a .380 ACP will not help you there.
As an armed (non-police) citizen, I don't see much of a need to punch thru car doors and windshields.
Everything's a compromise.
Here are 3 CCW-sized pistols I own (with a Colt Govt. for size comparison).
I prefer the H&K P7M8 best but have chosen the Kimber Officer's size as a better compromise. 7+1 .45ACP rounds compared to 8+1 9mm. Kahr doesn't really compare IMO.
All three are about the same length as the PPK but taller because of the ammo.
If you really want .45, consider a good officer's size 1911. (I added thin Carbon Creations grips to narrow it even more).
Here are 3 CCW-sized pistols I own (with a Colt Govt. for size comparison).
I prefer the H&K P7M8 best but have chosen the Kimber Officer's size as a better compromise. 7+1 .45ACP rounds compared to 8+1 9mm. Kahr doesn't really compare IMO.
All three are about the same length as the PPK but taller because of the ammo.
If you really want .45, consider a good officer's size 1911. (I added thin Carbon Creations grips to narrow it even more).
Attachments
Thanks everyone- special commentary for Mark IV
Thanks to several of you I went to a local gun store today and handled a Kimber. Looks and feels great. Thanks to your post PPK- I will be looking at an LS (web page got my interest). Thanks Tolley for your reasoning. CWL- I really appreciate the time and trouble for your reply and pics. It helped a lot. AND Mark IV, remember what Momma always said about that box of chocolates. Best regards everyone.
Thanks to several of you I went to a local gun store today and handled a Kimber. Looks and feels great. Thanks to your post PPK- I will be looking at an LS (web page got my interest). Thanks Tolley for your reasoning. CWL- I really appreciate the time and trouble for your reply and pics. It helped a lot. AND Mark IV, remember what Momma always said about that box of chocolates. Best regards everyone.
Given your preference of carrying without a holster I would suggest you take a good look at the Sig P245. 6+1 rounds of .45 with a long double action first shot. I'd be a bit nervous cocked n locked with a 1911 w/o a holster.
Another suggestion is the HK USP 45 Compact. A great lightweight gun with the option of carrying DA or Cocked n Locked if you so desire.
Good Shooting
RED
Another suggestion is the HK USP 45 Compact. A great lightweight gun with the option of carrying DA or Cocked n Locked if you so desire.
Good Shooting
RED
I carry a full size Sig P220 in .45 ACP about 90% of the time;
but if one desires something a bit smaller, I would recommend
the Sig P245. Learn to master the double-action first shot of
a Sig; and everything else comes natural.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
but if one desires something a bit smaller, I would recommend
the Sig P245. Learn to master the double-action first shot of
a Sig; and everything else comes natural.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Take a look at the Kahr line of pistols. They sound like just the thing for you. Compact, reliable, well constructed and powerful.
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I can invision a scenario wereby a driver or passenger in a vehicle might want to be able to fire through the windshield into a firearm weilding assailant in front of the car. Or maybe through the door into an assailant. Especially if your in a raised vehicle like a truck or SUV. Likely? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's at least as probable as some of the stuff I see floating around here as justification for various firearms choices.
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I can invision a scenario wereby a driver or passenger in a vehicle might want to be able to fire through the windshield into a firearm weilding assailant in front of the car. Or maybe through the door into an assailant. Especially if your in a raised vehicle like a truck or SUV. Likely? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's at least as probable as some of the stuff I see floating around here as justification for various firearms choices.
You bring up the interesting subject of shooting through car doors and windows with a handgun. I do agree with the posters who question whether a CCW citizen would have much reason to make such shots. I can see where LEOs might have to, though.
I read that the 38 super cartridge was developed by Colt back in the late 1920's because the the 45ACP ball ammo used by many LEOs then was not very good at shooting through cars - it often would deflect and ricochet if the angle wasn't close to 90 degrees. The 38 super, as well as the .357 magnum, were much better on cars. This would suggest that the best results on such penetration come with smaller, faster bullets than with the big, slow 45ACP.
On your question of finding a 45ACP as small as a Walther PPK, I don't know of any that small. I just measured my PPK, and the slide is about 0.8 inches thick, while the grip is 0.9 inches thick. It weighs about 20 ounces empty, I believe. It is one of the flattest guns I have seen, with the exception of the STI model mentioned by someone, which is slightly under 0.8 inches thick in 9mm and .40 S&W. I don't think any .45 will be as flat as the Walther.
I read that the 38 super cartridge was developed by Colt back in the late 1920's because the the 45ACP ball ammo used by many LEOs then was not very good at shooting through cars - it often would deflect and ricochet if the angle wasn't close to 90 degrees. The 38 super, as well as the .357 magnum, were much better on cars. This would suggest that the best results on such penetration come with smaller, faster bullets than with the big, slow 45ACP.
On your question of finding a 45ACP as small as a Walther PPK, I don't know of any that small. I just measured my PPK, and the slide is about 0.8 inches thick, while the grip is 0.9 inches thick. It weighs about 20 ounces empty, I believe. It is one of the flattest guns I have seen, with the exception of the STI model mentioned by someone, which is slightly under 0.8 inches thick in 9mm and .40 S&W. I don't think any .45 will be as flat as the Walther.
illuminatus99
New member
I've got a browning BDA in .380, it goes through steel car doors and hoods like butter with federal hydra-shoks, haven't tried it with other ammo.
Ya know
Cars are used as deadly weapons to kill people. Some are successful and some arn't. A car carries a heck of a lot more Ft-Lbs of energy than a bullet. Can't imagine a scenario where you are at the mercy of a car?
I've seen a guy attacked with a car and it wasn't pretty. He was incapable of escape after the first hit. He just couldn't limp fast enough. Unfortunately I wasn't armed or I might have attempted to save him before he was hit a second and a third time.
I ride a motrorcycle and have had a maniac chase me. I've also talked to other bike riders who've experienced this. I am aware some riders have been killed by this type of activity. I've only experienced it once in a quarter century of riding myself but that was enough to know that I may someday need the protection of a gun to save my life.
Everything depends on the circumstances and obviously those can't be known ahead of time... But one thing is for sure, these people who do this feel invulnerable in their cages of steel and glass. It's quite logical to assume that putting a bullet into their vehicle will disuade them in a hurry from their unlawful pursuit. I am left wondering if they'll care much what caliber is punching holes in their car if that is their only weapon.
Cars are used as deadly weapons to kill people. Some are successful and some arn't. A car carries a heck of a lot more Ft-Lbs of energy than a bullet. Can't imagine a scenario where you are at the mercy of a car?
I've seen a guy attacked with a car and it wasn't pretty. He was incapable of escape after the first hit. He just couldn't limp fast enough. Unfortunately I wasn't armed or I might have attempted to save him before he was hit a second and a third time.
I ride a motrorcycle and have had a maniac chase me. I've also talked to other bike riders who've experienced this. I am aware some riders have been killed by this type of activity. I've only experienced it once in a quarter century of riding myself but that was enough to know that I may someday need the protection of a gun to save my life.
Everything depends on the circumstances and obviously those can't be known ahead of time... But one thing is for sure, these people who do this feel invulnerable in their cages of steel and glass. It's quite logical to assume that putting a bullet into their vehicle will disuade them in a hurry from their unlawful pursuit. I am left wondering if they'll care much what caliber is punching holes in their car if that is their only weapon.