.45 ACP short?
- Thread starter rmocarsky
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
The .380 ACP is also called 9mm short (or "kurz" or "corto" Because it is a 17mm long case, as compared to the 9mm Luger (Parabellum) which has a 19mm case. Thus, the .380 (a.k.a. 9x17) is the "short" compared to the 9mm Luger (9x19).
There aren't any pre-existing, longer .45 automatic cartridges, and no shorter .45 automatic cartridges (other than the .45 GAP), so there's no need for a ".45 Short." If you think about it, the .45 GAP is the .45 "Short," but Herr Gaston wanted to call it GAP, so that's what it is.
There aren't any pre-existing, longer .45 automatic cartridges, and no shorter .45 automatic cartridges (other than the .45 GAP), so there's no need for a ".45 Short." If you think about it, the .45 GAP is the .45 "Short," but Herr Gaston wanted to call it GAP, so that's what it is.
Jim Watson
New member
Well, there is the .451 Jaeger, just enough shorter that an ACP won't chamber.
One of those European loophole cartridges so you can get the gun and the ballistics without a nasty old "military" round.
You could reasonably call that a .45 ACP Short.
Colt made a fair number for export. The ones that make it back to the USA usually get rechambered or rebarrelled.
One of those European loophole cartridges so you can get the gun and the ballistics without a nasty old "military" round.
You could reasonably call that a .45 ACP Short.
Colt made a fair number for export. The ones that make it back to the USA usually get rechambered or rebarrelled.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
But .45 Colt is a rimmed, revolver cartridge. The short version of that is the .45 Schofield. Both the .380 ACP and the 9mm Luger are rimless, semi-auto cartridges.smee78 said:
And then, of course, there's the 9x18 Makarov, but that's not really the same caliber despite the similar-sounding nomenclature.
I forgot all about that one.Jim Watson said:
Isn't the 45 GAP exactly a "45 short"? At least that's the way I understand it. Create a shorter 45 acp cartridge that delivers the same performance so you could fit it into the smaller 9 and 40 framed pistols. Never really took off though as the slight benefit was outweighed by the lack of ammo availability and handguns chambered in it. The 45 ACP is already an established popular cartridge. A very slight perk with some major drawbacks. Some even called it a problem looking for an answer but I just feel like that's the label we slap on good ideas that just didn't work out.
The 380 mainly still exists (and the 9mm Mak tbh.) because they are pretty much the limit of what a straight blowback pistol can handle safely without creating either a gun with a slide so massive it's impractical or having a recoil spring so strong that it's impossible to rack without hulk hands. (which are awesome)
The 380 mainly still exists (and the 9mm Mak tbh.) because they are pretty much the limit of what a straight blowback pistol can handle safely without creating either a gun with a slide so massive it's impractical or having a recoil spring so strong that it's impossible to rack without hulk hands. (which are awesome)
Other than the .45GAP, I can't think of an .45acp "short" rounds. Longer ones, yes, but not shorter ones.
Was unaware of the .451 Jaeger, but it makes sense, it wouldn't have anything other than a curio interest in the US, though.
The .45 Schofield (.45Government) is shorter than the .45 Colt, and was adopted by the Army along with its pistol. Both work in the Colt SAA, but only the shorter round would fit in the S&W. The era not being known for precise terminology in common usage, many might not know Colt or Schofield, but did know "long" and "short".
The .45ACP round was specifically crafted to replicate the ballistics of the .45 Schofield, in a semi auto.
Longer rounds that I know of are the .45 MARS round, .45 Thompson, neither ever widespread and both long gone, and the more modern .451 detonics, and the technically still produced (seasonal) .45 Win Mag.
Was unaware of the .451 Jaeger, but it makes sense, it wouldn't have anything other than a curio interest in the US, though.
The .45 Schofield (.45Government) is shorter than the .45 Colt, and was adopted by the Army along with its pistol. Both work in the Colt SAA, but only the shorter round would fit in the S&W. The era not being known for precise terminology in common usage, many might not know Colt or Schofield, but did know "long" and "short".
The .45ACP round was specifically crafted to replicate the ballistics of the .45 Schofield, in a semi auto.
Longer rounds that I know of are the .45 MARS round, .45 Thompson, neither ever widespread and both long gone, and the more modern .451 detonics, and the technically still produced (seasonal) .45 Win Mag.
Considering the development of the .45 ACP, it kind of is a .45 Short.
Sure. And the .380 is particularly short when compared to 9x20 Browning Long
.
As for .45 GAP, the relationship with .45 ACP isn't the same as between .380 and 9x20. .45 GAP is a shorter but higher pressure cartridge designed to deliver identical ballistics to its daddy. Officially, it was intended for ergonomic purposes, but a cynic might claim was it was a cost saving measure, allowing Glock to use the same frames for 9mm, .40, and .45.
Sure. And the .380 is particularly short when compared to 9x20 Browning Long
..45 Hirtenberger Patrone is the same idea. It's a .45 ACP, just shortened 1mm.
As for .45 GAP, the relationship with .45 ACP isn't the same as between .380 and 9x20. .45 GAP is a shorter but higher pressure cartridge designed to deliver identical ballistics to its daddy. Officially, it was intended for ergonomic purposes, but a cynic might claim was it was a cost saving measure, allowing Glock to use the same frames for 9mm, .40, and .45.
Jim Watson
New member
There is no relationship between the 9mm Browning Short (.380 ACP ) and the 9mm Browning Long (9x20SR) other than the designer's name.
.380 is its own design short and thin walled.
9mm Browning Long has the same case diameter and semi-rim as the .38 ACP.
If you are so fortunate as to have a 1903 FN or Husqvarna that has not been bushed to .380 - Or a 1909 Webley Automatic! - you can readily make brass for it by trimming .38 Super from 23 mm to 20 mm case length. All else is the same.
.380 is its own design short and thin walled.
9mm Browning Long has the same case diameter and semi-rim as the .38 ACP.
If you are so fortunate as to have a 1903 FN or Husqvarna that has not been bushed to .380 - Or a 1909 Webley Automatic! - you can readily make brass for it by trimming .38 Super from 23 mm to 20 mm case length. All else is the same.
ligonierbill
New member
I didn't know there was another pistol in 9mm Browning Long! Have the Huskie, now I need to find a Webley.
Jim Watson
New member
Good luck, I have never seen one outside of pictures. One old book said a lot of them went to South Africa.
45 GAP offers good performance from a 4'' barrel, especially with lighter bullets.
Glock 38:
Handload Barnes 160 Tac-XP @ 1,046 fps / 389# KE / PF 167
Winchester 230 Ranger T @ 837 fps/ 358# KE / PF 193
Speer Gold Dot 200 @ 949 fps / 400# KE / PF 190
Speer Gold Dot 185 @ 1,062 fps / 463# KE / PF 196
Glock 38:
Handload Barnes 160 Tac-XP @ 1,046 fps / 389# KE / PF 167
Winchester 230 Ranger T @ 837 fps/ 358# KE / PF 193
Speer Gold Dot 200 @ 949 fps / 400# KE / PF 190
Speer Gold Dot 185 @ 1,062 fps / 463# KE / PF 196
Old Bill Dibble
New member
Sort of. Glock was already making pistols in 45 ACP. The GAP was to make the pistols more compact. so 19.2 vs 22.8.
So far as being a "short", generally understood to be a round that has the same diameter but is shorter and less powerful; it is not. It was supposed to be the same power level as .45ACP by using more powerful powders. It did not work out all that great.
carguychris
New member
To be concise, the .45 GAP cartridge was intended to facilitate building a G17/19/26 size pistol in .45 caliber. The G21 already existed, but Glock believed that LE agencies were passing it up because officers with smaller hands—specifically females—couldn't shoot the large G21 comfortably. (This was long before the G21SF debuted.)
The anticipated LE sales have, for the most part, never materialized.
The .45 GAP is loaded to ACP+P pressure levels to maintain the same ballistic performance despite the smaller case volume. That smaller volume also results in less flexibility in terms of bullet selection. IMHO the cartridge is actually pretty nifty, but market acceptance has been extremely limited, presumably because the GAP—by design—doesn't do anything the ACP can't do, and it won't work in a proverbial bazillion legacy pistols.
The anticipated LE sales have, for the most part, never materialized.
The .45 GAP is loaded to ACP+P pressure levels to maintain the same ballistic performance despite the smaller case volume. That smaller volume also results in less flexibility in terms of bullet selection. IMHO the cartridge is actually pretty nifty, but market acceptance has been extremely limited, presumably because the GAP—by design—doesn't do anything the ACP can't do, and it won't work in a proverbial bazillion legacy pistols.
No real need/demand for it-what niche would it fill ? The 380 ACP-9MM Short is NOT to 9MMP what 38 Special is to .357. They were separate rounds developed for different needs. Firing a shorter round-correctly, that is-in a semiautomatic pistol requires a separate correctly chambered barrel.