45 ACP load data question
- Thread starter Bill96785
- Start date
Yep. 200 grains is 200 grains. You load for the bullet weight, not it's shape or construction. All the same COAL too. No idea why places like Hodgdon say 100 thou(1/10") for a JHP vs a SWC.
1.275" is the max OAL for .45 ACP with any bullet weight. And that's from the pointy part to the flat part of the bullet. No ogives involved.
Cast bullets will be .451" and the same length. The only way to get a specific weight in a specific diameter is by changing the length of the bullet. (There's a magical math formula about volumes and masses of cylinders, you don't need to know.) So any 200 grain bullet will be the same length while a 230 will be a tick longer.
1.275" is the max OAL for .45 ACP with any bullet weight. And that's from the pointy part to the flat part of the bullet. No ogives involved.
Cast bullets will be .451" and the same length. The only way to get a specific weight in a specific diameter is by changing the length of the bullet. (There's a magical math formula about volumes and masses of cylinders, you don't need to know.) So any 200 grain bullet will be the same length while a 230 will be a tick longer.
g.willikers
New member
Hold the phone, stop the presses.
The bullets mentioned all have different reloading data that needs to be followed.
The overall lengths of the loaded rounds have to be similar enough to fit the chamber.
But
The actual lengths of the bullets themselves (not the finished ammo some people call "bullets") are quite different, resulting in very different load data and maybe even the type of powders used.
Am I missing something in this conversation?
The bullets mentioned all have different reloading data that needs to be followed.
The overall lengths of the loaded rounds have to be similar enough to fit the chamber.
But
The actual lengths of the bullets themselves (not the finished ammo some people call "bullets") are quite different, resulting in very different load data and maybe even the type of powders used.
All lead bullets should fit the gun, and shape will not change diameter. Why would a SWC be smaller in diameter than a RB or TC?
As for charges, and not to get involve in a "discussion" on powder charges, I would say K.I.S.S. and use powder charges found in your reloading manuals. Find the bullet you want to load, find an appropriate powder and begin with the starting load. After you get a few thousand rounds under your belt, you can try extrapolating powder charges, if you choose...
As for charges, and not to get involve in a "discussion" on powder charges, I would say K.I.S.S. and use powder charges found in your reloading manuals. Find the bullet you want to load, find an appropriate powder and begin with the starting load. After you get a few thousand rounds under your belt, you can try extrapolating powder charges, if you choose...
The seating depth WILL be different.
The 'plonk' test is your friend and was recently discussed here with illustrations:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587893
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587946
The 'plonk' test is your friend and was recently discussed here with illustrations:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587893
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587946
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No, Yes, No...
A 200 grain SWC will have more bullet inside the case vs. a 200 grain RN. OAL is bullet dependent. You can have different OAL's for different makes of round nose bullets.
I have RN and SWC's that both work at 1.245" but that doesn't mean all bullets will work at that length.
A 200 grain SWC will have more bullet inside the case vs. a 200 grain RN. OAL is bullet dependent. You can have different OAL's for different makes of round nose bullets.
I have RN and SWC's that both work at 1.245" but that doesn't mean all bullets will work at that length.
Wrong.
Seating depth will greatly effect charge weights. Often, bullets of the same weight will seat more deep or shallow in the case. This seating depth effects burn rate, pressure, etc.
Wrong.
The bullet's ogive - or arched profile - has the greatest effect on COAL; in conjunction with your gun's chamber dimension.
Example: For 45 ACP, I load an X-treme 200gn PFP to a COAL of 1.175"; and I load my 200 LSWC's to 1.240". Both are within a few thousandths of reaching the lands of my Colt 1911.
Bill96785, look for load data for your bullet; or something as similar to it as possible. If you are in doubt, you can ask here for help. Give as many specifics as possible. Including your specific bullet, propellant, proposed charge weight, load data referencing, load purpose, and gun/barrel length.
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disseminator
New member
The main difference will be due to the seating depth of the particular bullet your loading. For example: a 200 grain Speer Gold Dot will have a different OAL AND charge than a 200 grain Speer TMJ round node flat point.
Some bullets will have a concave or hollow base that will affect charge weights and pressures. The semi wadcutters seat deeper into the case than the 200 round nose and will make extreme high pressures with the same charge you use in the round nose load.
Study your load manual and observe the warnings presented.
That is bad advice in this case.
Most of the danger can be avoided by starting low and working up, but you should not do so blindly.
ShootistPRS
New member
Powder capacity lowers with the seated depth of the bullet. If you have two 200 grain bullets with different shapes and you seat them to the same COAL then the case with the longer bullet has less powder space available. If you use the same amount of powder the case with less internal volume will generate more pressure. How much more pressure depends on a number of things. Te burning speed of the powder, how close it is to a maximum load, and the amount of jump to the rifling or in the case of a revolver how long a jump to the forcing cone.
All this has been with the same bullet construction - a cast lead bullet. If we introduce bullets with different jacket thicknesses, webs like the "H" or Nosler Partitions, or different materials like solid copper or bronze then the pressures can be very different from one bullet to another of the same weight. Always check the bullet manufacturers load data and the data from the powder manufacturer. When there is a difference use the data from the bullet maker.
All this has been with the same bullet construction - a cast lead bullet. If we introduce bullets with different jacket thicknesses, webs like the "H" or Nosler Partitions, or different materials like solid copper or bronze then the pressures can be very different from one bullet to another of the same weight. Always check the bullet manufacturers load data and the data from the powder manufacturer. When there is a difference use the data from the bullet maker.
No.
Everybody who lists data lists slightly different data. It's the nature of the beast. Everyone uses different test guns, and different components, and their results vary slightly.
First, lets be clear about a few things.
.45ACP COAL (Cartridge Over All Length) means the length of a loaded round, from the base of the case to the tip of the bullet.
The SAAMI standard is 1.275" MAX.
This is a standard for the longest round that should function in every .45ACP firearm. SHOULD.
It is not a "must load to" length. It's a "do not exceed, or expect issues" length. The practical max length is the one that will still feed ALL rounds from your magazine.
Can you have a gun that runs without issues if your ammo is slightly longer than the SAAMI max? Yes. Can you have a gun that won't run at the SAAMI max spec? Yes. Are they common? No. But they do exist. Its a matter of tolerances.
I doubt you can find a factory loaded round that actually measures exactly 1.275". They are all at least a little shorter, some much shorter. This is to improve their odds of functioning in every .45ACP.
Shorter than the listed max length hurts nothing, and is often needed as individual guns do vary.
The .45ACP is a low pressure round, with a fairly large case volume. Unlike some smaller, higher pressure rounds, it is not noted for being sensitive to large pressure spikes due to a few thousandths inch difference in bullet seating depth.
Like mentioned by others you should verify the data for the bullet your using. If you cannot find it I suggest asking here as was mentioned by Nick, with all of your specifics.
Just for comparrison purposes, here is a picture showing the 185gr HG 130 (R), the HG 68 (C), and the HG 78 (L)
As you can see these are all different lengths, and as far as how much is seated in the case that will vary as well.
That said, the "most common", but certainly not the only 200gr SWC is the HG-68 or a similar clone. Most who load these are using a fast powder like Bullseye, but others find that a bit slower one like Unique or similar works better for their purpose.
If you look at a burn rate chart, which is only a general reference and not to be used to load by, you will note that Bullseye is a faster burning powder than Unique. Even so depending on the load Unigue is a fast powder compared to a LOT of others, but depending on the caliber and bullet weight of said caliber it can be considered slow when used in handgun loads.
With the 200gr SWC I use mostly Bullseye powder, and usually it is only the minimum load range I work within. Most of not all of my loads run between 3.8 and 4.2grs. These are simply enough to fully function my 1911's and they shoot really nice groups out further than I can usually hold them together. I seat the bullets so that I end up with about .030" or so of the shoulder sticking up above the case neck when slightly crimped. I you do a search here you will find several illustrations of loaded rounds showing just a touch of the shoulder sticking out of the cases.
I usually remove the barrel from the pistol as most do, and check an inert test round for fit before I start loading. This lets me set the depth so the rounds will drop into the chamber and fit flush with the hood on the barrel. Usually with this particular type bullet, this sets the shoulder just off the lands and helps, least in my mind, to keep things more in line once the primer lights off the powder.
By using the lower end of the load data for these rounds I have never had any issues with pressure. I also load a 185'ish grain one which is the HG 130, and a 215gr one which is the HG 78. I load them all the same and because I use the lowest charge weight, I can usually use the same data for all three. I get more pressure from the 215gr than from the 185 due to weight and depth of seating for the longer one. So to keep the velocity equal I usually drop to the 3.8gr charge for them, and with the lighter ones I bump up to the 4.2gr charge. That said though the 200gr works well with either end and really the best right in the middle.
But like mentioned above if your concerned feel free to post up your components and we will be more than happy to guide you through this. If you want printed load data for this particular type bullet, you might look at either the Lyman Cast Bullet manual or one of their other manuals.
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Could you have possibly asked a question we could agree on less!!
The reason is there are too many conflicting absolutes.
- You must use only published loads exactly as published.
- You must load bullets to the right oal or your gun will blow up.
- You must load with rounds that fit your chamber.
These musts come about as a simplified way to keep you safe and reliable, but are not absolutes.
First, I want a reliable feeding round. I use the plunk test to set oal. This is a little short for absolute best bullseye accuracy and maybe a bit long for some guns to feed due to their slow or weak slide energy. In the end, plunk test length rounded to the 0.005 increment works best for me. My lengths are pretty close to similar factory loaded rounds....huh.
Next powder charge....when you look at manuals in 45 acp, you see powders like Bullseye, AA#2, Titegroup used heavily for cast. You see Power Pistol, HS6 and AA#7 used for max velocity JHP loads. I used powders suited for both and plated these are mid range multipurpose powders like aa#5, Longshot, 231, etc.
For charge weight, I start at the bottom and work to best accuracy. This is often near the max load. When you test loads that are too hot, accuracy goes south and the striker smear on the primer becomes excessive. Keep this at factory ammo or smaller. Firing pins don't smear at 45 auto pressures.
The reason is there are too many conflicting absolutes.
- You must use only published loads exactly as published.
- You must load bullets to the right oal or your gun will blow up.
- You must load with rounds that fit your chamber.
These musts come about as a simplified way to keep you safe and reliable, but are not absolutes.
First, I want a reliable feeding round. I use the plunk test to set oal. This is a little short for absolute best bullseye accuracy and maybe a bit long for some guns to feed due to their slow or weak slide energy. In the end, plunk test length rounded to the 0.005 increment works best for me. My lengths are pretty close to similar factory loaded rounds....huh.
Next powder charge....when you look at manuals in 45 acp, you see powders like Bullseye, AA#2, Titegroup used heavily for cast. You see Power Pistol, HS6 and AA#7 used for max velocity JHP loads. I used powders suited for both and plated these are mid range multipurpose powders like aa#5, Longshot, 231, etc.
For charge weight, I start at the bottom and work to best accuracy. This is often near the max load. When you test loads that are too hot, accuracy goes south and the striker smear on the primer becomes excessive. Keep this at factory ammo or smaller. Firing pins don't smear at 45 auto pressures.
The cartridge MAX overall lengths published in reloading manuals are generally those agreed to by the arms and ammunition makers (SAAMI). Cartridges within that MAX may or may not function well in your firearm, though they should at least fit into the chamber (assuming the gun meets SAAMI standards).
Most reloading loading data sources also provide the finished cartridge overall length used for their published loads. This length, along with the various component combination produced safe pressure levels in their testing, and (hopefully) proved to be a good combination. If all the components are used as specified in the load data, the finished load should prove safe in most appropriate firearms. But it still doesn't mean it will function well in all guns, or provide good accuracy in most guns, nor is it guaranteed to be safe in all guns.
There are just too many variables among all the components and firearms to come up a MAX load that will be safe in every gun at all times. That is why reloading manuals provide starting loads and discuss signs of excessive pressure which can damage the gun, shooter, or others nearby.
As far as bullet weight specifically, just because one bullet is the same caliber (diameter) and weight as another does not mean they are interchangeable as far as loading data. Differences in bullet materials, construction, shape, bearing surface, the presence of a hollow point, etc., can all effect the pressure generated and the appropriate overall cartridge length.
Shooters (myself included) can get frustrated at the variations in published data. But when you consider the number of component combinations available and the inherit variations within those components, it's no wonder the data varies as much as it does. We just need to learn to live with it, respect it, and work with it accordingly.
Most reloading loading data sources also provide the finished cartridge overall length used for their published loads. This length, along with the various component combination produced safe pressure levels in their testing, and (hopefully) proved to be a good combination. If all the components are used as specified in the load data, the finished load should prove safe in most appropriate firearms. But it still doesn't mean it will function well in all guns, or provide good accuracy in most guns, nor is it guaranteed to be safe in all guns.
There are just too many variables among all the components and firearms to come up a MAX load that will be safe in every gun at all times. That is why reloading manuals provide starting loads and discuss signs of excessive pressure which can damage the gun, shooter, or others nearby.
As far as bullet weight specifically, just because one bullet is the same caliber (diameter) and weight as another does not mean they are interchangeable as far as loading data. Differences in bullet materials, construction, shape, bearing surface, the presence of a hollow point, etc., can all effect the pressure generated and the appropriate overall cartridge length.
Shooters (myself included) can get frustrated at the variations in published data. But when you consider the number of component combinations available and the inherit variations within those components, it's no wonder the data varies as much as it does. We just need to learn to live with it, respect it, and work with it accordingly.
The last one is true - a round that won't chamber isn't good for much. I'm not sure anyone said either of the first two, though. The original question, and some of the answers, seem to indicate an incomplete understanding of the fact that changing the size of the combustion chamber changes pressures. Will it be a critical change? It is conceivable that it could, especially if one is already pressing the upper limits for a round. Someone with a useful knowledge of algebra can take some measurements and calculate a seating depth that will maintain combustion volume. A reloader who cares about his gun might still start a little lower and work it up.
Kevin Rohrer
New member
The OP is overthinking it. 200gr = 200gr.
I always work up loads from data.
In reference to all bullets friction is a big factor. Example: How hard is the lead. Some lead is very soft and some are very hard. The friction of the round with a hard or Jacketed bullet should be greater than a soft lead bullet = higher pressure...
In reference to all bullets friction is a big factor. Example: How hard is the lead. Some lead is very soft and some are very hard. The friction of the round with a hard or Jacketed bullet should be greater than a soft lead bullet = higher pressure...
Mahalo
Thanks for all the great answers. Can't say I'm any less confused but I am definitely more educated.
Here is a recipe I found on another site. Thought I'd share it.
Case: Range Brass (WW, R-P) length = .886"
Primer: Winchester WLP
Powder: Ramshot True Blue 6.8 grains (starting load) estimated 775-875 FPS. (MAX = 7.6 gr. est. 975-975 FPS per Ramshot)
Bullet: MasterCast 200 gr. LSWC (lubed)
Overall loaded length (OAL) = 1.25"
Case Flared to .488"-.490" to allow bullet to be inserted easily.
Taper Crimped to .470"
Thanks for all the great answers. Can't say I'm any less confused but I am definitely more educated.
Here is a recipe I found on another site. Thought I'd share it.
Case: Range Brass (WW, R-P) length = .886"
Primer: Winchester WLP
Powder: Ramshot True Blue 6.8 grains (starting load) estimated 775-875 FPS. (MAX = 7.6 gr. est. 975-975 FPS per Ramshot)
Bullet: MasterCast 200 gr. LSWC (lubed)
Overall loaded length (OAL) = 1.25"
Case Flared to .488"-.490" to allow bullet to be inserted easily.
Taper Crimped to .470"
Aloha Bill
That load data looks a little on the low side when I look at data from the Western powders sight. It should be noted I didn't see any load for a 200gn lead or cast bullet. It seems to match the data for a 230gn lead projectile, which will obviously be safe. You could probably run the load a little hotter than that if you wish. I'm seeing that they publish 8.2gns as a max on a Berry's plated SWC (didn't know they made such a thing, but I digress) in Ramshot's online guide. Generally speaking, 45acp is a caliber that is friendly to substituting jacketed or plated load data on cast projectiles (as long as the type of bullet, ie RN or SWC, is similar) as it operates at such a low pressure and velocity... the two things that causes leading in barrels.
At any rate, you can not just substitute any 200gn data for all other projectiles of like weight in every case... but you can in many cases. Look at a manual or any compilation of load data for 230gn in 45acp projectiles using a certain powder. You will notice that most of the starting loads and max loads are VERY similar, usually within 5%, even when going from FMJs to JHPs. There are exceptions, which is why this...
...is not universally true. Bullet shapes can affect the seating depth needed to properly chamber, and when you seat the bullet deeper in the case you shrink the size of the powder chamber and increase the pressure that a given measure of powder will create. While this is a fairly small change in many cases, such as a simple FMJ vs a simple JHP, sometimes it can be quite different. Hornady XTP projectiles always have quite different load data than many others in the same weight class. As you get experience, you will learn when you can safely substitute load data and when you can't. And you can often-times substitute. That is one of the reasons why you start 10% off of max and work up... at times you can't always use data that perfectly matches every component you're using, and even if you can you don't know how that load will work in your particular firearm verses the test barrel used to create the load.
That load data looks a little on the low side when I look at data from the Western powders sight. It should be noted I didn't see any load for a 200gn lead or cast bullet. It seems to match the data for a 230gn lead projectile, which will obviously be safe. You could probably run the load a little hotter than that if you wish. I'm seeing that they publish 8.2gns as a max on a Berry's plated SWC (didn't know they made such a thing, but I digress) in Ramshot's online guide. Generally speaking, 45acp is a caliber that is friendly to substituting jacketed or plated load data on cast projectiles (as long as the type of bullet, ie RN or SWC, is similar) as it operates at such a low pressure and velocity... the two things that causes leading in barrels.
At any rate, you can not just substitute any 200gn data for all other projectiles of like weight in every case... but you can in many cases. Look at a manual or any compilation of load data for 230gn in 45acp projectiles using a certain powder. You will notice that most of the starting loads and max loads are VERY similar, usually within 5%, even when going from FMJs to JHPs. There are exceptions, which is why this...
...is not universally true. Bullet shapes can affect the seating depth needed to properly chamber, and when you seat the bullet deeper in the case you shrink the size of the powder chamber and increase the pressure that a given measure of powder will create. While this is a fairly small change in many cases, such as a simple FMJ vs a simple JHP, sometimes it can be quite different. Hornady XTP projectiles always have quite different load data than many others in the same weight class. As you get experience, you will learn when you can safely substitute load data and when you can't. And you can often-times substitute. That is one of the reasons why you start 10% off of max and work up... at times you can't always use data that perfectly matches every component you're using, and even if you can you don't know how that load will work in your particular firearm verses the test barrel used to create the load.