45-70

C

cervri

New member
Just pulled the trigger on a Henry 45-70 and will be reloading for it...Been doing some reading on loading for it and have come up with a couple of questions.

Lead bullets, at what hardness do you require gas checks /or coated bullets?

I have lots of H335 and would like to use it but don't see a lot of data for 300 grain slug..Yay or nay....

Sources for lead/plated bullets...

The only lead bullets I have ever loaded is 148 gr 38 wadcutters..and a few 45 ACP

Thank you for any info......
 
Hodgdon only shows H335 for jacketed .45-70s. If you want something cheaper, 4198 is good for cast and presumably coated or plated.

I have only ever loaded .40-65 (.45-70 necked down, the .45s kick more than I enjoy) with black powder and soft cast bullets so I can't say much about smokeless.
 
Lyman lists data for H322, one "notch" faster than 335. They tested a 20:1 alloy up to about 2,100 fps, no gas checks or coating. In general, leading is more due to undersized bullets, but you really need to test in your own gun. Their recommended bullet is their #457643 400 gr that they state is specifically designed for lever guns, running just over 1,700 with a compressed charge of H322. H335 being a bit slower, you will probably run slower, but I would think it would work. I buy most of my cast bullets from Buffalo Arms in Idaho, but I'm sure you can find a cheaper source for this common diameter.

I only load for an old trapdoor, and I use Alliant Black MZ and the "original" 405 gr bullet.

Of course, there are excellent jacketed 300's available and plenty of load data. They generally run faster powders.
 
I've owned/own a number of 45-70 rifles and it's one of my favorite cartridges. It's also about the least fussy cartridge to load for. Most guns simply seem to like about anything. I've had great luck with Rel 7, 4198, 5744, and 2400 powders. Most of my loads are with 405g bullets, or bullets close to that weight. I load for around 1400-1550fps and so far I have yet to recover a single bullet from a deer shot at any distance and at any angle. You don't need to load any hotter than this to easily kill any deer (or moose, black bear) in North America. It's pretty easy on your end and devastating on the receiving end. I don't want to be critical or anything, but sometimes you just have to buy another pound of powder more suitable than what you have on hand. I'd suggest getting some 4198 to use with your new gun. As far as gas checks go, it's more about what velocity you're shooting at than what hardness the bullet is. Up to around 1500fps you simply don't need a gas check. I'm not sure what reloading manual you have, but take a look at the Lyman 50th edition and there are a lot of suggested loads in there for this cartridge. The manual is divided up into three power/pressure levels for this cartridge depending on the gun you're using. I'd suggest staying with the Trapdoor loads to start. Your gun will probably be safe at the next level, but the power/pressure simply isn't needed to get you to where you need to be for a good hunting load. If you're going to shoot cast bullets you're going to need to slug your barrel to see what diameter it is. When you know that, you can get some bullets that are .001-.002" larger to try in your gun. With jacketed bullets this isn't necessary. Good luck with your new gun.
 
"...what hardness..." Isn't the hardness, its the velocity. Your manual will tell you if there's any gas check needed. Those are usually seen on bottle necked case bullets.
"...data for 300 grain..." H335 jacketed data is on Hodgdon's site under Lever Actions. They also have jacketed data, but not using H335 Their Trap Door cast data will be fine out of a Henry too.
It's best to buy components locally. Saves the shipping costs. Ask the guy/place you buy the WC's.
 
Richard Lee has a formula for what peak pressure may be used with what bullet hardness before distortion follows. If you surpass that point, then apply a gas check for best accuracy. You still may not need it for leading, though.

Velocity is a popularly repeated estimate for how hot you can load a cast bullet, but it is misleading without the commonality of the gun. A load that doesn't lead in a 10" Contender barrel won't lead in a 28" Encore rifle barrel of the same internal condition, either, but is going a good bit faster out of the latter.

For my Marlin 1895, I find bullets about 0.002" over groove diameter are a little more accurate and less prone to leading (without a gas check) than bullets sized to the standard cast bullet 0.001" over-groove. The only other thing it occurs to me to mention is I acquired and like the Redding profile crimp die for 45-70.

H335 is not popular in the big round in part because it is a 1960's vintage formulation with the older hard-to-ignite deterrent coatings. This means you can't load it down very far before you get irregular velocities and dirty burn. You want to use a magnum primer, like a CCI 250 or Federal 215 and work up. I will say I like 4198 better, but I can't see any evidence this won't run. Try about 57 grains to start with lead, but, depending how deeply your bullet choice seats, avoid going below 85% case fill.
 
Thank you all for the great information....I don't hunt any more so it's just for plinking...Love loading and shooting and I have wanted a henry 45-70 for as long as I can remember....I noticed the trapdoor loads in reading and is probably about the loads I will try out....I have order 200 starline brass and some 300 gr coated 50) bullets to start off. Have RCBS dies ordered and caliber conversion for my Dillon 550b..Now have to wait for it all to come in...............Merry Christmas to me...........Yeah...

One more....Are you all using Magnum primers?
 
I don't use mag primers 'cause the powders I use do not require them.

My loading uses mostly IMR4198, H4198, and 2f black powder.
 
Thank you again for the info....Good don't want to get mag primers anyway....Score, I have an 8# jug of H 4198, was in one of my ammo cans...
 
Cervri,

I think you'll be happier with the 4198. It will not be as dirty at the lower pressures and will likely provide better accuracy.

The magnum primers I suggested were only likely to be needed for the H335. That and BL-(C)2 and 748 and H380 and H414 are old '60s era formulations and frequently ignite and burn better with magnum primers (not always; it depends on case capacity and load density and bullet weight), but there is seldom need for magnum primers with any of the stick powders used in the 45-70. Indeed, with powders that ignite easily, magnum primers sometimes make velocity less consistent. In still other instances, they make no difference at all.

If you have a chronograph, you can look at velocity standard deviation as an indicator of how well the powder is igniting, with smaller numbers being better, and in that way compare the effect of the two types of primer to see which is better with a particular powder. Just keep in mind that when you change primers, especially from a standard to a magnum primer, you want to drop the powder charge 5% and work back up to the same average velocity you had with the previous primer.
 
cervi, just a word of caution. I also have a Dillon 550 and it's a great press....but, it can cause some unwanted problems when loading cases like the 45-70. Here's the problem: if you get a double charge in the process you won't see it. The 45-70 has a lot of case capacity and can easily accept a double charge of powder (with all Trapdoor loads) and you can end up with a squib and a double charge. I don't consider the 45-70 to be a "high volume" shooter. It's more about developing accurate loads and in cases like yours, going to the range and shooting groups and targets. Might I suggest you load on a single stage (if you have one) and use a set of Lee dippers and a powder trickler. I do this, and I can easily load all the ammo I need and it doesn't take all that much time. I get safer, more accurate loads doing it this way. If you're looking to develop accurate and "fun" loads, this is probably your best way to do it. The Dillon works great for high volume shooting, but even this great press isn't best for everything. Be safe.
 
An advantage to the 550's manual indexing is it allows you to use any station as if it were on a single-stage press. Just don't index it except for priming. Pulling the brass buttons allows the independent use of each station, so you are saved having to readjust the dies.

Last year I bought the Skylight illumination add-ons for both my 550B and Square Deal presses. I think they are a good investment for seeing powder level in a press with no lock-out die position. Both Inline Fabrication and UniqueTek carry them as does Amazon (which has free shipping on it for the same price).
 
I cast and load for a Henry 45-70. I can’t find store bought lead bullets large enough not to lead the barrel. I cast with a NOE mold that throws out appr 380 grain bullet and size it to .460 using Bac lube in a RCBS lube sizer.
Henry will handle any Marlin , Winchester load data. You can load for trap door or Modern lever no problem. Do not use Ruger only data. Mine didn’t shoot 300 grain that well. Reason for new mold. It’s accuracy bullet is a 478 grain bullet from an old accurate mold. H335 is my go to powder for Modern lever data. I use Unique for trapdoor loads. No filler necessary. I’m about equal to Lyman#2 on hardness and mine are gas checked. I’ve pushed the 380 grain out to around 1200-1400 FPS. Does a lot of damage to whatever it hits. Unique loads are around 1000 FPS and are still good deer loads. I’ve got a Marlin and the Henry plus a Ruger#1 in 45-70. My experience is that the Henry is more accurate of the three. All mine are scoped. Hardness can be an issue but bullet diameter will be the deciding factor in your accuracy and keeping a lead free barrel. I don’t use any magnum primers with my loads. I did buy a set of RCBS cowboy dies which makes seating over sized bullets a lot easier and a good crimp is necessary. You don’t want bullets coming apart in the tube under heavy recoil.
 
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I have a light setup for the 550 and somewhere in my stuff I have a lockout die.....Got a lot of stuff saved up...Started loading in the mid 70's with a $24 RCBS Jr and $11 RCBS Dies..I'll be looking around and taking my time with these..Thank you again.....
 
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