45-70 Story, Thoughts -- Source for 300 gr Lead Bullets?

J

Jeffm004

New member
I have a new to me Marlin .45-70. I shot a nice buck with it last year at 70 yards, it went nowhere. Quartering away it penetrated 18-22” with massive damage inside. It did not exit but I still did not find the bullet. I had it butchered. I was using 300 gr Hornady interlock HP with 58 gr of 4064, I was staying at the light end (57 min-61) Speer Book #14, and it ran 1840 fps +/- 10. Two inch groups at 100 yrds, much better than the 405 lead, 350 Hornady or 350 Berry I have yet to dial in. I like to shoot so someday I need/want to dial in the other, much cheaper bullets. (As an aside the Hornady FTX was even more accurate, even with the tips cut off with a wire cutter (so they would feed crimped at the cannelure. I refuse to trim brass to fit just one bullet.)

I typed up a little table 300/350/405 lead by Varget, 3031, 4064 and 4198, grain spread and velocity change. What I saw was a 3-6, usually 4 gr spread (6% max) and a velocity max spread of 100 fps, 5%.

The hunting load I used was comfortable to shoot (last year). Some of the max loads pick-up what appears to me, a lot more than a 5% increase in recoil. Anyone know the math for that? A quick search showed, no. For one, a lot of the burning is heat, not velocity energy making some of the listed calculations sketchy. Two, it is E based on V but the V is not constant but a long tail bell. 3. A shooter that rolls a little will have less “felt” recoil. I think some turn that into a very repeatable flinch but knock yourself out, literally. I’m happy to conclude the ROI on max loading is just not there if you are going to shoot a lot. At least for me right now.

I’m 2 weeks the other side of open heart surgery and suspect I’m going to need a “light” load wrt recoil this year. I think the heavier bullets are out for this season so I’m going to take the 300 gr Hornady all the way down to 57 with the 4064 and also 57 with the Varget. I’m guessing the slower the burn rate, all else equal, the less felt recoil. For the powders I have burn rates go fastest to slowest: 4198 (I’m out right now), 3031, 4064, R15 (I like it, just do not have a 45-70 load), Varget.

All that said unjacketed lead can go even lighter with a light 300 gr bullet. 45 gr min in Varget and 49.8 in 4064. Giving up about 150 – 200 fps with almost a 25% reduction in powder. (The current Lee book).

Does anyone have a source for 45-70 lead that light (300 gr) that they like, especially if they run it at the slow end? I’m going to start looking, having mulled all this over here. I have 800 405 gr bullets that are benched at least this season :(.

tx
 
"...2 weeks the other side of open heart surgery..." No shooting for you at least until the doc ok's it. You can't lift more than 10 pounds for 8-12 weeks. A 300 grain .45-70 has about 23.9 ft/lbs. or energy.
Quad by-pass in Jan., 2013, myself. Told 'em I could lift 10 pounds with my tongue. snicker.
Midway is listing 300 grain cast FP's at $41.99 per 100. Missouri wants $38.50 per 200.
 
Thanks, Missouri also has them coated. Any experience with coated at the slower end? I have sped up pistol without difficulty but I'm new to seriously trying to reduce recoil in a rifle. I am also unsure how much coated would expand if I hunted with them. Would it make a difference? A difference the deer would notice? While I like coated bullets in general, I may go straight lead for now because I want the expansion. Then again a 45-70 at the slow end may not expand much, if any, anyway?

And yes, no shooting for two months.

I'm pretty sure I will order 200 of each :o
 
Yes, logon to Moyer's Cast Bullets (located in Pa) or probably better yet call 814-349-5410 (Wed thru Sat). They show a .458 diam .45/70 300 gr FN-GC, RCBS design at $15.75/50. I've ordered from them before and delivery time has been good. I've also used a 360 gr .45/70 moly coated, not gas checked, available from Bear Creek Supply in Ca. All moly coates seem to come bulk packed, like 300 per package, but prices are right. I have a local source for the molys and have never had to order through Bear Creek. Accuracy with various moly coat calibers has been good but used just for fun shooting.

Moyer's is one of three best sources for a variety of cast lead rifle bullets that I have been able to find. This information was presented in a recent thread I had posted, titled I think "Sources for cast lead rifle bullets", that is probably now on just the previous page. Bear Creek was not one of the top three but was mentioned as sort of an aside should there be any interest in molys.
 
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MY gun loves the Hornady FTX 325 grain loads. I just buy Hornady brass for it. I reload to the same velocity as the factory ammo.
 
Thanks all. I ordered 100 300 gr and 100 Hi-Tek coated in 300 gr in sample packs from the Missouri Bullet Company. I also ordered 150 Hornady 300 gr JHP. I should not be left alone with a computer.

I also sent them a question about Hi-Tek coating the barrel and difficulty switching between lead, copper and coated wrt barrel coating.

I read on line some fussing about Moly coating a barrel, being hard to clean out and throwing off lead/jacketed when switching back - and needing 40-50 fouling shots to coat the barrel to use them.

I'm thinking that is hog wash. I'm going to work up the lead & JHP the way I want, measure the group size and then work the moly load. Then I'll go back and look for a change in impact with the other loads.

I have long avoided lead bullets as too much leading, not enough punch, just not as good as jacketed but if you look, lead runs about the same velocity (-100 fps-ish) at 300 gr with 20-25% less powder. Other reading indicates this is because the lead seals the bore better and is "slippy-er" than copper. I'm beginning to conclude, at least with the 45-70, you can load a much cheaper bullet (lead 200/$40 vs 50/$25) with 20% less powder and have near identical velocity and a better expanding projectile on impact (if there is any at low end 45-70 velocities).

I've been shooting the Missouri 405 gr without leading or any real challenges. My first foray into bare lead.

I'm not sure yet where moly fits into this. It may be a solution in search of a problem, I do like coated for .45 ACP but usually load plated simply because the price difference is trivial. I switch those in and out with no discernible impact on the other but it is not bench shooting either.

With luck, I'll push all three into a wet phone book or three and take a look later this summer.

Jeff
 
I would stay away from Moly.
Most 300 jacketed bullets in 45-70 are too easy to expand .You hardly need much expansion with 45 cal !!
A good recoil pad and perhaps a PAST shoulder recoil pad will do a lot also as will using a heavy gun like 8 lbs.
For heart surgery also consider who's going to drag the deer out of the woods -- a serious consideration !!
 
Missouri got back to me. No worries hi-tec coating the barrel. Excellent. They suggest the 405 gr for hunting as expansion at low loading is unlikely (and unnecessary). Probably true. I have 800 of those, I'll try a couple as the low end in a couple months, see if I hold together.
 
If recoil is the thing you are trying to reduce, there are some titegroup loads that are reduced. I have not tried any but know some who have. I've been told a 405 atop 10 grains is getting about 1100 fps with minimal recoil (for the .45/70). Hogdon has loads published for titegroup and .45/70. I would guess a 405 running at 1100-1200 would be lethal to a deer critter and easy on the shoulder. Check out the loads and work your own up.
 
the 405s at 1100 should be pretty light recoil and still hit hard enough for deer. I have loaded 550 grain bullets at 1050 and the deer just got knocked over an did not move again other than the shakes. There was almost not meat damage other than where the opposite side shoulder took a bullet that was tumbling and sort of shattered.

the 550 grain loads at 1050 have a very mild recoil so I would guess that the 405s (150 grains lighter) at only 50fps fast would be even easier.
 
My CABG surgery was 12-17-14. I had the usual restrictions, but mostly did what I could stand without causing pain in the sternum area. I healed quickly, even though I am diabetic. Us sweet blood people tend to heal more slowly, I did NOT! The pain in the middle didn't last much more than 2 months, I did NOT test it though.

I could cough with gusto after 2 months, but whether I could stand the off-center thrust of my NEF buff hunter in 45/70 I will never know. (Probably not!)

If I wanted a 300 grain lead boolit, I would get a mold and make my own. Then PC them, not have to worry about leading. Cast of 40-1 lead, it would expand well, but still hold together.
 
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I've also paper patched 300 grain cast .452 pistol bullets. Can't recall if I sized them down any first, but I don't think I had to. IIRC, over Bullseye they made were accurate gallery loads.

Regarding recoil, SAAMI publishes a formula for free recoil energy here. QuickLOAD has a built-in calculator.

Keep in mind that free recoil energy is for a gun floating in space. When you pull the gun into your shoulder hard, your mass is coupled to the gun, slowing the acceleration that results. Though total momentum remains equal and opposite to the ejecta, since energy is proportional to the square of velocity, it is considerably less than in the bullet and is reduced further when you add your mass to that of the gun. It's counter-intuitive, but the harder you pull the gun into your shoulder, the less hard it smacks you. Leaving a gap between the butt of the gun and your shoulder so the gun gets a runup to maximum possible recoil velocity is the way to make it hurt most. I know the short range benchrest shooters do it, but they aren't firing 300-500 grain bullets out of a hunting weight rifle.
 
You can get a very gentle load using pistol powders with your 405gr. bullets. I prefer Unique at 13gr. (1150fps) and a 405. You can increase the velocity to 1450fps with 25gr. of 2400. Neither need a filler and both are very safe. Both have killed. i have a 405 gr. home cast hollow point made of 1 to 30 lead that is very soft. We shot a hog and had expansion to .75 inches. This all going 1150fps. Don't write off the bigger bullets. All you give up is trajectory. A 45-70 doesn't need 1800fps or more to kill. Cast is your friend. Try the Unique load and see how you do. I had my boy shooting those at 7 years of age and it is still his favorite load at 16 years.

Data from Greg Mushial:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Also, when they were available, the 300gr. Remington HP were the softest commercial jacketed and would expand nicely even going 1500fps with a load like the 25gr. of 2400. A perfect lower recoil load!
 
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Just for completely the opposite I have a tailormade twin-barrel 45-70 and I reload for it with barnes tripleshock hollow point, all-copper 300gr bullets to speed of 2300fps with very good results on the scandinavian moose. The recoil is not convenient, though.
Note: DO NOT TRY THIS ON A NORMAL 45-70 FIRE ARM!
 
I have not tried the Marlin, but I have an old single shot in 45-70. Using a 510 grain bullet and a cardboard wad over a slightly compressed charge of 53 grains of 1.5F Old Eynsford black powder is a mild load and in my limited testing so far quite accurate. More of a shove than a kick. I feel confident that a 405 grainer loaded over a suitable charge of 1.5F might work well for you. I do not know about the 350's.

I also use AA5744 powder to starting loads for the Trapdoor rifle and recoil is not objectionable.

AA5744 is a really nice smokeless powder in 45-70.

Just my $.02, but with open heart surgery, you might want to sit out this season to be sure you have healed properly. Or perhaps a 243 Winchester is in the running?
 
A .243 is not legal in ohio, it has been shotgun for years but now open to"strait walled pistol cartrages."

Still struggling with what I think I can do and what the world thinks I can do. But I'm going hunting.
 
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