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45-70 ftx reloading single shot?
- Thread starter axis223
- Start date
Hornady 9th Edition clearly states:
When loading FTX and Mono Flex bullets, case trim length and cartridge overall lengths will be specified by individual cartridge and bullet in the data chart.
That can be found on page 647 and all they are telling you is the 45-70 Government cartridge has a typical trim to length of 2.095" and that is the standard suggested trim to length for the standard 45-70 case. However when using Hornady's FTX or Mono Flex bullets the trim to length becomes what they suggest. The 325 grain FTX has a Trim To length of 2.040" so you trim your 45-70 brass to Hornady's suggested trim length for their particular bullet rather thn the 2.090 standard trim to length. Absolutely nothing says you must use the shorter Hornady Brass. Use any 45-70 brass you wish, just trim to Hornady's suggested trim length for the FTX and or Mono Flex bullets.
Ron
When loading FTX and Mono Flex bullets, case trim length and cartridge overall lengths will be specified by individual cartridge and bullet in the data chart.
That can be found on page 647 and all they are telling you is the 45-70 Government cartridge has a typical trim to length of 2.095" and that is the standard suggested trim to length for the standard 45-70 case. However when using Hornady's FTX or Mono Flex bullets the trim to length becomes what they suggest. The 325 grain FTX has a Trim To length of 2.040" so you trim your 45-70 brass to Hornady's suggested trim length for their particular bullet rather thn the 2.090 standard trim to length. Absolutely nothing says you must use the shorter Hornady Brass. Use any 45-70 brass you wish, just trim to Hornady's suggested trim length for the FTX and or Mono Flex bullets.
Ron
What you have is the major downside to using either of those bullets. If you use the Hornady "Trim To" length for those bullets you now have short brass. It is easy to take long brass and make it short but not so much the other way around. My view with Hornady is they can take their non standard brass and bullets requiring it and shove them all up their ... well you get my drift. When they did this they deviated away from all the SAAMI standards which while voluntary do keep things uniform.
When loading 45-70 I use a https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/8900/458-dia-45-70-300-gr-HP-FN or I also like several others I hunted with long before Hornady reinvented the wheel. Using 45-70 the average deer game I have taken was inside 100 yards with most less than 70 yards. Never had a need for a new bullet design as they all died real quick and on the spot. There are literally dozens of bullets out there to get the job done without having to custom trim my brass well below specification. Screw Hornady and their new stuff.
No, you do not need the Hornady die set. Any standard 45-70 dies will work just fine.
Just My Take/Opinion
Ron
When loading 45-70 I use a https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/8900/458-dia-45-70-300-gr-HP-FN or I also like several others I hunted with long before Hornady reinvented the wheel. Using 45-70 the average deer game I have taken was inside 100 yards with most less than 70 yards. Never had a need for a new bullet design as they all died real quick and on the spot. There are literally dozens of bullets out there to get the job done without having to custom trim my brass well below specification. Screw Hornady and their new stuff.
No, you do not need the Hornady die set. Any standard 45-70 dies will work just fine.
Just My Take/Opinion
Ron
NoSecondBest
New member
The ONLY reason they tell you to trim shorter for that bullet is so that it will feed through a lever action gun. Trim to length has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING to do with that bullet if you're using it in a single shot rifle. I've owned half a dozen 45-70 rifles in lever action (Winchester), several Sharps, and a couple of High Walls. I'm not giving you my "best guess" for my answer. I actually know what I'm talking about. Hornady uses short brass so that their bullets will not exceed the length of the carrier in a lever gun. LeveRevolution.....get it? Just use loading data for a bullet in that weight and don't mess with shortening the brass or worry about chambering it. If it fits in your single shot chamber, you're good to go.
I studied this problem for a little while for my Ruger #1. First a Ruger #1 is considered a pretty strong action. It is stronger than the Contender and some others, IMO.
Next, i was not going to trim the cases. No reason on a #1. So, I would set my OAL to lands -0.030".....my rifle baseline. Then I would test loads using a chronograph to establish what velocities i was getting. I never did this, but i figured i woul have to add powder to match Hornady's velocity.
Instead, i compared 325 ftx ballistics to 300 gr hp ballistics and chose the 300 gr bullet. Trajectory was my focus and 0-300, they are too close to mess with it. 300 gr bullets are cheaper and proven too.
Next, i was not going to trim the cases. No reason on a #1. So, I would set my OAL to lands -0.030".....my rifle baseline. Then I would test loads using a chronograph to establish what velocities i was getting. I never did this, but i figured i woul have to add powder to match Hornady's velocity.
Instead, i compared 325 ftx ballistics to 300 gr hp ballistics and chose the 300 gr bullet. Trajectory was my focus and 0-300, they are too close to mess with it. 300 gr bullets are cheaper and proven too.
Something you can try. Load a standard 45-70 using your Hornady bullet (no powder or primer) but only start the bullet into the case. Now load it in your rifle and see if it loads fine. Let the rifle finish seating the bullet.
Something else worth a try is trim to the suggested Hornady length (2.040") and try the above. Do they chamber? If these rounds chamber and seat the bullet you will measure a COAL and know exactly what you have to work with. This should be simple and no problem.
Ron
Something else worth a try is trim to the suggested Hornady length (2.040") and try the above. Do they chamber? If these rounds chamber and seat the bullet you will measure a COAL and know exactly what you have to work with. This should be simple and no problem.
Ron
NoSecondBest
New member
The only significance regarding cartridge OAL in a single shot 45-70 is whether or not the ogive on the bullet will enter the lands in the rifle. You rarely have to trim straight walled cases and if you trim them all up one time you'll be good to go for a very, very long time as far as case length goes. OAL is important for feeding through a box magazine in a rifle, or riding on a carrier on a lever gun and of very little importance in a single shot rifle. I seat all my bullets out very close to the rifling and most of my loads are "over length" per the book. I wouldn't do this with my Win 1886 45-70 since the bullet has to travel on the carrier up to the chamber to get loaded. If it's too long it won't fit. You can seat it out as far as you'd like. Just for your info, I've been loading this cartridge for years and I can tell you for a fact that the most accurate loads you'll find will be with heavier bullets in this cartridge. I have two full pages on a spread sheet detailing every load I've ever tried and I've never found the lighter bullets shooting as well as the heavier ones. Yes, they are "deer capable", but never as accurate. I can't even imagine why you're spending the time on this bullet in particular. The idea that this bullet design will allow you to shoot "flatter and farther" than other bullets is really off-set by the mortar like ballistics of the 45-70 regardless of the bullet used. With 400g+ bullets in my guns I can easily shoot 1moa groups at 100yds with this cartridge. If I know the range to the target I can shoot as far as practical with this caliber and flatten anything I'm shooting at. However, that's your decision and I wish you the best of luck.
shootbrownelk
New member
I've had trouble loading Hornady Flex-tip pointed bullets in my .45 colt. If your 45.70 dies are for seating flat nose bullets you will crush/deform the tip when seating. Hornady makes a special die for loading FTX bullets. I had to buy one.
The #6 Thread by Reloadron is what you need to know. Case designs come and go and this is a prime example what will be happening with this round.
Don't end up with a rifle that you can't find ammo on the shelf for unless you make it up your self. The value of the rifle will drop. As a hand me down it could be passed and a useable weapon.
That is my opinion.
Don't end up with a rifle that you can't find ammo on the shelf for unless you make it up your self. The value of the rifle will drop. As a hand me down it could be passed and a useable weapon.
That is my opinion.
NoSecondBest
New member
axis223,
Although the caliber doesn't determine how well a gun will shoot, the fact is that most 45-70 rifles do shoot well. Big bore slugs are fairly easy to get to shoot well out of most guns. If you want something that shoots well, doesn't kill on your end, and will easily do a complete pass through on any deer you ever shoot at regardless of the angle, get some Rem or Hornady 400/405g JHP or JSP bullets and load them up. I can load these bullets up with several powders and get consistent 1moa five shot groups with them. I've shot a number of deer with them and they are devastating on deer. Most drop in their tracks or go twenty yards at the most. I have never lost a deer with these bullets.
Although the caliber doesn't determine how well a gun will shoot, the fact is that most 45-70 rifles do shoot well. Big bore slugs are fairly easy to get to shoot well out of most guns. If you want something that shoots well, doesn't kill on your end, and will easily do a complete pass through on any deer you ever shoot at regardless of the angle, get some Rem or Hornady 400/405g JHP or JSP bullets and load them up. I can load these bullets up with several powders and get consistent 1moa five shot groups with them. I've shot a number of deer with them and they are devastating on deer. Most drop in their tracks or go twenty yards at the most. I have never lost a deer with these bullets.
The reason that bullet is popular is it has a higher ballistic coefficient than the hollow points and flat nose soft points. It won't matter at shorter ranges, but if you want to extend the range a little, then it can.
As others stated, the COL isn't critical when single-loading. You just don't want to jam a maximum load into the lands of the rifling. A simple check is to open your action and point the muzzle down. Drop a bullet into the chamber and set the eraser end of a pencil on the base of that bullet down in the chamber. Sight across the edge of the receiver to the pencil and mark it with a knife or another pencil where it is even with the breech end of the gun. Remove the pencil. Next, drop a case in and set the same pencil eraser on it and sight along the action and make a second mark. Measure between the two marks with a caliper. Subtract that length from the length of your case. The resulting number is the Seating Depth of the bullet in the case when it just touches the throat. Then use the following formula with that seating depth to find your starting COL:
Starting COL = case length + bullet length - Seating Depth - 0.030"
That will give you a COL that 0.030" shorter than contacting the throat, as Nathan mentioned using. It's a good number because, except for VLD and round nose bullet shapes, it won't appreciably raise the pressure of a maximum load. Getting closer will start raising it unit, actually touching the lands, the pressure might be up 20%.
Note that if the bullet cannelure is sticking out of the case, then you can also try seating deeper until the cannelure is level with the case mouth. If you were to experiment with crimps, that would matter, though you shouldn't need to crimp since you are not stacking these bullets in a tubular magazine. The loads intended for use with the crimp cannelure even with the mouth of a shorter case, as are in the Hornady manual, are going to be a little light when you seat out farther, so be prepared to add a little powder. How much? That will vary with the powder, but can be estimated by anyone with QuickLOAD for you once you have the COL.
Note that the seating depth method here is simple but probably not more accurate than about 0.010". If you want a precise number, it gets more complicated. But you can search the forum for past posts on the subject.
As others stated, the COL isn't critical when single-loading. You just don't want to jam a maximum load into the lands of the rifling. A simple check is to open your action and point the muzzle down. Drop a bullet into the chamber and set the eraser end of a pencil on the base of that bullet down in the chamber. Sight across the edge of the receiver to the pencil and mark it with a knife or another pencil where it is even with the breech end of the gun. Remove the pencil. Next, drop a case in and set the same pencil eraser on it and sight along the action and make a second mark. Measure between the two marks with a caliper. Subtract that length from the length of your case. The resulting number is the Seating Depth of the bullet in the case when it just touches the throat. Then use the following formula with that seating depth to find your starting COL:
Starting COL = case length + bullet length - Seating Depth - 0.030"
That will give you a COL that 0.030" shorter than contacting the throat, as Nathan mentioned using. It's a good number because, except for VLD and round nose bullet shapes, it won't appreciably raise the pressure of a maximum load. Getting closer will start raising it unit, actually touching the lands, the pressure might be up 20%.
Note that if the bullet cannelure is sticking out of the case, then you can also try seating deeper until the cannelure is level with the case mouth. If you were to experiment with crimps, that would matter, though you shouldn't need to crimp since you are not stacking these bullets in a tubular magazine. The loads intended for use with the crimp cannelure even with the mouth of a shorter case, as are in the Hornady manual, are going to be a little light when you seat out farther, so be prepared to add a little powder. How much? That will vary with the powder, but can be estimated by anyone with QuickLOAD for you once you have the COL.
Note that the seating depth method here is simple but probably not more accurate than about 0.010". If you want a precise number, it gets more complicated. But you can search the forum for past posts on the subject.