45-70 crescent steel buttplate

S

stubbicatt

New member
Guys. I'm eyeballing an old Winchester with a crescent buttplate, chambered in 45-70.

I'm not entirely familiar with this design, and reading on the internet has left me somewhat confused. Some say to shoot one of these as one would any other rifle: with the buttstock in the pocket of the shoulder, inboard of the "ball" of muscle. Others say to mount it up with the buttstock outboard of the "ball" of muscle, and upstream of the biceps.

If I mount it up to the shoulder, inside the ball of muscle, the points of the crescent dig into my chest/shoulder junction, and I can imagine that it will be a "single shot" -- meaning I shoot it once, and after getting out of ICU, I sell it to the next unfortunate, with one box of 19 cartridges. If I place it outside the ball of muscle, and upstream of the biceps, there is not a lot of meat there, only bone, and I can foresee other issues, also requiring a trip to ICU...

I have experimented with a 1873 Uberti repro, also sporting a crescent buttstock, and have found that stock placement is dependent upon position. Standing, it fits nicely outboard of the ball of muscle, but kneeling or seated, fits nicely pretty much *just* inboard or actually more on the ball of muscle. Again, that is a pistol caliber carbine, and recoil is quite mild. I anticipate that the 45-70 is no "maiden's caress" and that the wrong stock placement might feel a lot like a karate chop from Bruce Lee!

Surely someone knows the "right way" to do this?

Thanks in advance.
 
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At one time I had a Browning B-78 (single shot high wall), in 45-70 that a very pronounced steel crescent butt plate. While the gun was a thing of beauty, it kicked viciously with even mild cast-bullet hand loads. I never discovered any technique that would lessen the sharp felt recoil. There may not be any technique involved that will lessen recoil...in any event, I did not find it. Maybe the shooter is just supposed to endure it.
 
As said in the 2nd post, I doubt there is any shouldering method to ease the kick!

I have to say, I love the look of the crescent shape steel. Would I endure it in .45-70? Maybe a shot or two! My Ruger #1 kicks enough!
 
It's a heavy rifle, and if used with original power loadings recoil isn't going to be bad at all. When Marlin re-introduced the 1895 back in the early 1970's they had a curved plastic buttplate on them the 1st year or so. I've owned a couple of those over the years. The Marlins are a lot lighter than the Winchesters and recoil wasn't bad at all with traditional loads. Modern heavy loads are a different story.
 
It's a heavy rifle, and if used with original power loadings recoil isn't going to be bad at all. When Marlin re-introduced the 1895 back in the early 1970's they had a curved plastic buttplate on them the 1st year or so. I've owned a couple of those over the years. The Marlins are a lot lighter than the Winchesters and recoil wasn't bad at all with traditional loads. Modern heavy loads are a different story.
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Are you saying that the "original" 500 grain bullet infantry load is not a heavy kicker?
 
I seem to recall the crescent butt plate as being as 19th Century target rifle idea. Although I suspect it's more of a "We think it's pretty." thing since the1885 .44-40 Marlin I have has it too.
The "maiden's caress" is more about the load used in combination with the weight of the rifle. Standing or sitting matters too.
 
Howdy

I have lots of experience with crescent shaped butt plates.

They are not limited to target rifles. Starting with the 1860 Henry rifle, crescent shaped butt plates were standard on many, many lever guns.

First, a bit of definition.

Let's look for a moment at three versions of the Winchester 1873 rifle. Winchester made their rifles in three basic configurations; rifle, carbine, and musket. The top two guns are the rifle configuration, one has a long barrel, the other has a short barrel. Rifles were defined as having a crescent shaped cast butt plate and the fore stock was attached to the barrel with a dovetailed hanger, dovetailed into the barrel. And rifles had a metal cap over the end of the fore stock.

Carbines were defined by more than just a short barrel. The butt was shaped differently, the butt plate was a shaped piece of heavy sheet metal. The 'crescent' of the carbine butt plate was much less pronounced, and had no sharp corners. The fore stock of the carbine was attached by a barrel band, there was no metal cap over the end of the fore stock. There was a second barrel band up front securing the magazine, and the front sight was sometimes mounted to the front barrel band, sometimes dovetailed into the barrel. The barrel of the carbine was short, with a more pronounced taper than a rifle barrel.

Finally, the Musket configuration was a kind of over grown carbine, with a Carbine style butt stock and butt plate. The fore stock extended the entire length of the barrel and was usually held on with three barrel bands.

winchesterconfigurations.jpg




The first Winchester chambered for the 45-70 cartridge was the Model 1886, designed by John Browning. This is probably the gun the original poster is referring to. You can always tell the 1886 rifle by the plate behind the loading gate. This one is a rifle configuration with a half magazine.

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I can assure you that if you put those sharp points of the crescent against the meaty part of your shoulder and pull the trigger, it is going to hurt like the dickens. I used to have a Model 1894 with a half length magazine and a crescent shaped butt plate. No one had ever shown me how to fire a rifle with a crescent shaped butt plate, so I would place the crescent against the meaty part of my shoulder. Even though it was just a 30-30, it hurt like the dickens every time I fired it as the points of the crescent bit into my shoulder.

Many years later, when I bought a 45-70 Sharps, I made sure to buy one with a 'shotgun' shaped butt plate. I knew I was going to be shooting it from the bench a lot, and from the bench the butt is usually right against the meaty part of the shoulder. A crescent shaped butt plate would have hurt like the dickens if I fired it from the bench.

Most of my experience with lever guns with crescent shaped butt plates is with 'pistol calibers' such as 44-40 and 38-40. These calibers do not recoil much. Even so, many shooters in CAS complain about crescent shaped butt plates because they do not know how to shoot them properly. Most stand straight on to the target and place the butt against the meaty part of the shoulder. Even with mildly recoiling cartridges such as 45 Colt or 44-40, the recoil will be enough to hurt. Many of these guys put leather butt pads over the butt plate to cushion it.

The way I shoot a rifle with a crescent shaped butt is to hike the butt out further on my arm, so the points of the crescent encircle the shoulder joint. This is the way the crescent is meant to be used, with the points encircling the joint, the rifle will not slip up or down while you are levering the gun. In order to mount the rifle this way, I stand at more of an angle to the target, almost 90 degrees. The rifle is actually mounted across my body. The last thing to remember about a crescent shaped butt plate is to raise the elbow. Raising the elbow brings the rifle up to your face, rather than lowering your face to the rifle.
 
Remember those rifles were not meant to be fired from the bench with the body behind and at a right angle to the gun. They were fired off hand with the rifle pointing left (for a right-handed shooter) across the body and the upper left arm down on the left side of the rib cage.

With that hold, the upper tang prevents recoil from causing the buttstock to drop off the shoulder (same idea as the buttplate shoulder rest on the M14). Also, gripping the rifle that way locks the arms and the whole body together to add weight to the mass resisting recoil, so the rifle and the shooter recoil together.

Jim
 
Thanks Driftwood Johnson and James K.

So basically the ball of the shoulder or thereabouts is the mounting point?

How then to shoot one either prone or seated/kneeling?

Prone at about a 45* angle to the target with the butt on the ball of the shoulder and the barrel angled across the body? Or is there a better way?

Thanks again fellas.
 
As I said, when standing, put the butt far enough out so the crescent encircles the joint.

Cannot help you with prone, that is going to be the most punishing position because your body will not move at all to help absorb the recoil. If you try to hike the gun out past your shoulder while prone it will be awkward to achieve the proper sight picture without craning your neck. I have a friend with a Sharps with a crescent butt plate chambered for 45-120. It hurts like hell to shoot that baby from a prone position. That's why I bought my Sharps with a 'shotgun' style butt plate.

Seated at a bench will be slightly better because your upper body will rock back slightly in recoil. You can always cheat and roll up a rag to put between you and the points of the crescent if you have to. Or slip a buttstock pad over the crescent.
 
My first BPCR was an 1885 Single Shot ("highwall") with crescent buttplate in the mild .38-55.
It STILL kicked from bench or prone. I wore a strap on shoulder pad until I could find a replacement stock with shotgun butt.

So the answer to "How then to shoot one either prone or seated/kneeling?" is: You don't, not comfortably. As JK and DJ say, it was meant to shoot standing on your hind legs like a man.
 
That's right! I forgot. At the bench with my 45-70 Sharps I used to wear a shoulder pad like this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/680235/past-field-recoil-pad-shield-ambidextrous

Just call me a sissy, but with a case full of Black Powder and a 500 grain bullet the 45-70 gives a pretty good wallop, even in a heavy Sharps. Not problem if standing, but at the bench I used the pad. Of course that was with a shotgun style butt plate. I dunno how helpful it would have been with a crescent butt plate.
 
I have such buttplate on my Browning Copy of the Winchester M1895 in 45-70. I use it in BPCR shooting meaning mild loads of black powder. Not too bad if you don't do too much shooting at one session, but recoil does get to you. I like the looks and originality so I wont change it.

What I did do is buy a shoulder pad. It works, and a cheap fix.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Shoulder_Recoil_Pad_it-160522.aspx?CAT=4019

I've shot some pretty hefty loads nearing the velocities of the 458 Win and still the pad makes it a pleasure too shoot.

I have a lot of rifles with steel butt plates, surplus military rifles and even pre-64 Model 70s. Again if you're shooting a couple hundred rounds out of one of these guns the shoulder pad will improve your shooting.

Also My wife has three rods between her shoulder blades from a broken back. Her 243 is alright but with anything else, the shoulder pad allows her to shooter nearly every rifle I have. Also good when working with kids to keep them from developing flinches.

And I will confess, I'm a wimp, I like my shooting to be enjoyable.

Best $45 I've spent.
 
I have a suggestion though...

I get bruises from those with it shouldered in either position ( old man Aspirin regiment & a crescent but plate will make you black & blue every time )

try commissioning a slip on /lace on leather butt cuff, that has a single layer of of leather over the points, & multiple layers of leather ( or other padding ) in the valley of the crescent... in essence making a more conventional flatter butt shape, without altering the classic looks of your rifle
 
I get bruises from those with it shouldered in either position ( old man Aspirin regiment & a crescent but plate will make you black & blue every time )
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Tell me about it!!!
 

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It is really fun to spend an afternoon shooting a trapdoor carbine with 500 grain infantry loads. 50 years on, just thinking about it makes my shoulder ache.

Jim
 
I know a guy who has a bad habit of letting his turkey gun ( 12gauge 3" mag) slip out onto his upper arm when trying odd angle shots. After seeing the black, blue, and green bruises on his upper arm, I wouldn't recommend that position.

The crescent buttplate is from a time when men were men(albeit not very smart sometimes) and I have absolutely no use for them.
 
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