44Mag-MountainGun-Ammo?

T

TVDean

New member
I need to get a feeling for how effective my current loads are and how they compare to others that handload for the S&W 4" Mountain Gun.

I want the gun for defense against bear (possibly brown) when in the backcountry. I've worked up to 20.5gr H110 with a Hornandy 265 JSP. The load chronos at 1120fps for 738ft.lbs of energy. I want 1250-1300 for 900+ft.lbs. The problem is I only have another grain of powder to add before I reach Hodgdons "MAX" of 21.5gr H110. I doubt I'll get another 150fps from 1 gr of powder, besides the primers are starting to flatten but the cases eject smoothly still (so maybe I still have a couple grains left) :)

What sort of velocities are you guys getting from heavy bullets in your 4" revolvers?

I've tried AA#9 also; I was getting around 1100 with 18.0grs

(Temps are 50 deg F)

Oh, and do you think my guns .010" cylinder gaps are bleeding too much power?

Is a 265 JSP at 1100 good enough for stopping agressive bear?
 
265gr isn't really a heavy bullet for the 44, many shoot up to 325gr. The Mountain Gun should handly a 300-310gr in the 1,300 fps range - your hand may not though!

I'd use Dry Creek Bullet Works 310gr Keith 44 bullet, it just fits in the Smith cylinder, over 21.5gr of H110. That clocks at 1,275 fps from my 6" M29 which works out to over 1,100 ft/lbs of energy. Even if it droped to 1,200 fps in your 4" gun you'd be close to 1,000 ft/lbs and have a lot more penetration than the 265 gr loads.
 
The reasons I'm hesitant about shooting bullets in the 300gr range is that I read somewhere that the 629s aren't built for it.

Someone wrote here somewhere that the SW factory told him to stay 270gr and under in his 629.

I also am timid about "full house loads" 'cause my gun didn't like Cor-Bon's 305gr Penetrators. The shells had to be hammered out.

When do we say when as far as pressure signs?
Is shell extraction a good indicator?
When the shells start to stick-a-little, that's the peak for your specific gun?
 
The heavy duty load for my Mountain gun is a hard cast 310 grain SSK LSWC over a lot of WW296. Velocity is around 1300 fps. This load does get your attention when you touch one off, but it as accurate, and has great penetration.

For daily carry purposes, I have been using the CorBon 165 grain JHP. Exellent performance, good accuracy, and light recoil to the point where you can actually do 'double taps'.

For plinking, I like the Blazer 240 gr LSWC
 
Older 29's and 629's weren't up to the heavy bullets, my 29 really doesn't like them - the trigger sticks in the rear position when touching off heavy loads so I don't shoot them in that gun anymore. But the later guns, including the Mountain Guns are supposed to all have beefed up internals to handle heavier loads. They're still not a Redhawk obviously but occational heavy loads shouldn't hurt it.

I'd say if the cases are sticking you've gone beyond max for that particular gun, although that's not always a great indicator. If you have rough chambers you can get sticky extraction even with factory loads.
 
Hi, TVDean. IMNSHO, the only really proven .44 Magnum rounds for bear defence in a tight spot are the Garrett Hammerhead rounds - they have been used to stop a charging grizzly at 15 feet (yes, feet!), rolling it over in its tracks. You can find details in the testimonials on the Web site: www.garrettcartridges.com. I think that the lighter 310gr. Garrett would work fine in your Mountain Gun - but it would certainly kick harder than anything you've ever fired out of it before! I prefer it out of my 5½" Redhawk - still a handful to control, but not nearly so wicked as out of a lighter gun...
 
I think what you need to do is go to a lead bullet like a Cast Performance WFN. www.castperformance.com. I have used two of there bullets the 255gr WFNPB and the 300gr WFNGC. I have settled on 17.5grs of 2400 in the 255gr for a avg. velocity of 1184fps. With 18.5grs of 2400 I get 1235fps. I find the load with 17.5grs better for a general field load. However I don’t have anything bigger the black bears to worry about. The 300gr loads I have tried so far is 18.5 of 2400 for a velocity of 1243fps and 19.5 of H-110 for a velocity of 1206fps. You can get even more out of H-110 but I haven’t gotten around to it yet.
 
Not to discredit garrett but their testomony says one of their 310's out of a 2" penetrated all the way back to the hips on a charging alaskan griz. If thats the case it would seem to figure a hard 250gr LSWC (or better) out of a 4" or 6" should make it at least to the vitals and work just fine. Id say push the heavyist bullet you feel comfortable with as fast as you can and you should be fine. Think of it this way, they (bear) have been killed with knives and .357's. Id say any .44 is better and definitely better than nothing at all.
 
Lead bullets is probably the way I need to go. I'll get more velocity from a lead bullet......

I tried H110 max today of 21.5gr with both Fed150's and CCI Mag primers.
I averaged 1173 with the CCI mags, and 1150 with the 150's

From 19.5 grs to 20.5gr of H110 was about an 8% increase in velocity. From 20.5 to 21.5 is about 4.5% increase. It looks like I'm running out of room for improvement? I might try 22gr of H110 just to see how much velocity I pick up. Still, with 21.5gr, cases drop out of the cylinder smoothly.

Question: If cases sticking to the cylinder is NOT the best way to determine excessive pressures, what is? How far should I go with the H110?

Typically, how much faster are lead than jacketed bullets with the same charge? 50fps?
 
FWIW , I'm playing with a load that puts a 325 SWCGC out of my older 6" 629 at about 1250 fps. My Mountain Gun seems quite happy shooting the same load.

I haven't really accuracy or velocity tested it from the Mtn Gun because recoil's so violent that the three local big bore shooters I let try it couldn't keep both hands on the gun through the recoil! And none of us want to fire enough rounds in cold blood to form a group.

No brown bears around here to worry about anyway, but I'm gonna have to lob one of these at a whitetail this fall.

Rick
 
He's got a SMITH AND WESSON, folks.

IIRC, the Garrett's and other 'specialty' ammo, like Buffalo Bore, are NOT IN ANY WAY INTENDED for use in other than Ruger or Dan Wesson guns.:eek: Be careful. You already have an excellent, capable handload just as it stands.
 
Like Victor says....BE CAREFUL

Primers, case stick etc are NOT dependable pressure indicators.

Check with the ammo manufacturer regarding safety of ammo in YOUR gun.

.010" is too much gap. Find out why it is so wide. Did the gun come from the factory out of spec or is it already damaged.

Don't carry any load that you can't shoot rapidly AND accurately.

Sam
 
Garrett Hammerheads in the 310gr. weight are safe in any modern .44 Magnum wheelgun. Randy Garrett states that his hotter, 330gr. Hammerheads in this caliber are intended for use only in the Ruger Redhawk and Super Redhawk. So the lighter Hammerheads will be fine in your S&W. The following is taken from www.garrettcartridges.com (bold print my emphasis):


GARRETT'S 44 MAG AMMO
$65 / 50 CTGS

31O-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST HAMMERHEAD AT 1325-FPS

THIS 44 MAGNUM AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN TC CONTENDERS AND ALL 44 MAGNUM REVOLVERS IN GOOD CONDITION.

ENERGY: 1200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 25; MEPLAT: .320"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 34,000-PSI; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .239; TRAJECTORY: +2" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -8" @ 150-YDS


GARRETT'S 44 MAG AMMO
$65 / 50 CTGS

330-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST LONG-HAMMERHEAD AT 1385-FPS

THIS 44 MAGNUM AMMO IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN RUGER REDHAWKS AND SUPER REDHAWKS.

ENERGY: 1400 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 28; MEPLAT: .320"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 40,000-PSI; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .255; TRAJECTORY: +2" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -7" @ 150-YDS
 
Is a 265 JSP at 1100 good enough for stopping agressive bear?
Click to expand...
Not only no,,,but h** NO!

Why so emphatic?
Well, look at it this way. It's obvious that you've put a great deal of time, effort and research into developing this round. This isn't one of those typical *will a .25 Baby Browning stop a Griz* type threads. Unlike those types, it looks like a great deal of thought has gone into this. If after all that, you still have enough doubt that you feel you need to ask, then there isn't any other way to put it but no.

Personally, if it were me, I think I'd be looking at other options here, like moving up to a Ruger in .45LC. Getting energy levels like you want out of the .45LC in a Ruger is way more doable.
 
Thanks for the response guys. After corresponding with Randy Garrett (GarrettCartridges), he convinced me to stop trying to squeeze more energy from my 4" mountain gun. The velocity of 1160fps with 270gr bullet should be adequate for bear protection, but he recommends a better penetrating bullet, not the JSP I've been loading.

Knowing that lead will give me another 30fps and better penetration with the same charge, I think I'll go with a good hardcast bullet (280-300gr)with a wide meplat. Heck Beartooth bullets is in my area, I'll try them.

He also mentioned that with higher velocities, more stress is imparted on the bullet. Sometimes that's not a good thing if your lead bullet is soft, or brittle (ie, know what your bullet is capable of before you drive it to 1375fps).

Bottom line: For my purposes, while utilizing a 4" 44mag, 1150fps is fine if the right bullet is chosen. With my future load, I pity the black bear that charges me, and pray a brown doesn't! :)

When flyfishing, knowing that I have 6 shots of a deep penetrating .431" diameter 280gr Lead HardCast bullets @1150fps in a lightweight 44mag is comforting.

Stay safe.
 
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