4473 to buy a muzzle-loader - say what?

F

FirstFreedom

Moderator
A local store has a sign that a yellow form is required on the Savage 10ML (smokeless powder muzzleloader, if you're not familiar). Huh? I thought muzzle-loading firearms of all types were exempt.
 
The only muzzle loader that I know of that requires the yellow form is the Thompson Center Encore because the receiver can be used for rifle, shotgun, or pistol. This is a new one on me :confused:
 
I believe the ATF has made judgements that certin bolt action muzzle loaders are firearms. Not for sure, but that's the way I remember it.

Jungle Work
 
That would be odd since they specifically state the if it is not using "fixed" ammunition then it is not a regulated firearm. If the T/C is a reg. firearm then what about my 1858 remington blackpowder pistol I bought? It takes the drop in cartridge cylinder (probably) easier than the T/C barrel change. It is a frame.
 
Well, the T/Cs, Rossis, and NEFs that accept other rifle barrels have always been 4473ed, as the receiver, since a receiver a gun makes.

But the 10ML I thought was no papers - as someone said, if the definition is "fixed" ammo, then it would seem that loose powder and bullet shoved down is not fixed - or is it? Anyone have the definitive answer from the batmen?
 
From what I've understood it doesn't even have to be loose powder. It can be a cartridge but the primer has to be seperate. Just remembered about the blackpowder pistols not counting as a reg. firearm even though they're frames. They are considered replicas.
It is theoretically possible to make a non reg. firarm lever action using paper cartridges and seperate, mechanicaly placed shotgun primers because the primers would be seperate.
 
Guy at gun store today told me in definitive terms that "there is a specific ruling by BATFE that smokeless powder muzzleloaders like the Savage are controlled by the fed firearms laws." Can anyone please verify or dispute this?
 
The original criteria

for "muzzleloaders" was that in included the "before 1899 or replica thereof" exemption. As the Savage and other bolt "muzzle loaders" are about as much a primitive arm as my GLI is a "horseless carriage," the requirement - if such it is - of a 4473 is not all that bizarre.
 
Is the savage 10 ML the one that can use smokeless powder? If not, then what about the newer muzzloader they came out with that does? What do they mean by "blackpowder substitute"??????? (I know about clearshot and pyrodex and that's not what I am wondering about) I am more confused about ATF's rulings :confused:
 
The 10ML is advertised as using smokeless powder. Looking over the document I stuck above, it looks like anything that can be changed to a regular rifle with a barrel change (listed are things like the Contender and 870), are 4473'd. Also, it appears to be anything built on a firearm reciever (I don't know for sure, but is the 10ML built on the same reciever as a Savage 110?). In addition, it says 'blackpowder substitute', which to me, means Pyrodex, not smokeless.

But I am not a lawyer, that is just my take after reading this.
 
After reading that link it seems to me that, both I and Bass Pro broke the law when they sold me my blackpowder pistol. Even though it is a replica I can (and I have done so) easily change the pistol into a smokless powder, fixed ammunition firing firearm. I know that I did not break the law WHEN I changed it to a modern gun for personal use by replacing the BP cylinder with the R&D cartridge cylinder, but, it if I read the ATF decision correctly, my pistol should have been considered a regulated firearm at time of purchase.
 
Well, lookit, it's been the case for quite awhile that any gun (receiver) which can do a barrel swap into a firearm, IS a regulated firearm (TC, NEF, Rossi). But that ruling makes quite clear that even non-swappable muzzleloading rifles are regulated if they do not use "black powder or black powder substitute". Smokeless powder is not a BPS. So there you have it, plain as day. And it says the Savage 10ML (1st version) is on the list as an example - so if the later version was designed for black powder or BPS, then it wouldn't be 4473'ed. Novus, very interesting point there.
 
since I have no clue of Blackpowder Pistols, must you be 21 to purchase? Is there a waiting period for them? This could be an alternative to our younger shooters not able to purchase handguns... Just a thought.

I like the blackpowder stuff, the slow burn, large clouds of smoke. Good hobby I would think.
 
I believe that any muzzle loader that requires a 209 shotshell primer requires a 4473. Muzzle loaders that use regular old number 10 or11 caps or flintlocks are exempt.
 
Now I know that that is not true. The terminology used is "fixed ammunition" and blapowder or substitute of blackpowder. The shotshell primer rifles qualify as BP rifles and are not regulated because they do not use "fixed ammunition". You can walk into Wal-mart, buy a shotshell primer firing bolt blackpowder rifle and walk out without a backround check or filling out a form. Even in Maryland.
 
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