4473 already cross checked with watch list?

I highly doubt it.

#1, the 4473s are the actual paper forms you fill out (Fed, state may have their own as well) and they are RETAINED by the FFL DEALER. Until/unless the dealer goes out of business, THEN they are shipped to the ATF.
(there is a time limit the dealer must keep them, 20 years, I think, not certain about that..)

In order for the ATF (or anyone) to check they forms they would have to physically visit the FFL location and check the records. This is done in yearly inspections, or for specific investigations.

#2, since there is, at this time, NO connection AT ALL with the no fly list, other than the misguided ranting of politicians, what govt agency is going to spend its budget sending agents to each and every FFL dealer, with a copy of the NoFly list, to check its 50,000+ names against all the 4473s the dealer has???

Unless I am much mistaken the 4473s are NOT computerized, so any search would have to be "by hand" at each and every dealer in the country. Not only would that entail a truly MASSIVE cost in man hours, I doubt very much if the network of dealers and gun friends in the country would fail to note this, and make it public knowledge.

Now, the background check info, the over the phone data, (which is NOT the 4473, but uses some of the information on it) could be stored on computer, and used to check against every secret list the govt has.

Possibly why that data is required BY LAW to be purged after a set time. It would not surprise me to learn that certain govt agencies are keeping the data, in violation of statute, to use for their own purposes.
 
Possibly why that data is required BY LAW to be purged after a set time. It would not surprise me to learn that certain govt agencies are keeping the data, in violation of statute, to use for their own purposes.
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Personally it would surprise me if it weren't, just sayin. :(
 
Names from NICS checks have been compared to the terrorist watchlist for years, as discussed in this 2010 GAO report.
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It's one thing to go over an application from someone on the watchlist with a fine tooth comb and quite another to flat out deny any application from someone on the list.

From the cited GAO report:

1,119 (about 91 percent) of these transactions were allowed to proceed because no prohibiting information was found—such as felony convictions, illegal immigrant status, or other disqualifying factors — and 109 of the transactions were denied.

This means that only people who had some legitimate disqualifying factor were denied. What is currently being proposed is instead of passing 91% of the suspect transactions, passing NONE of the transactions of people put on the list.
 
No, that would mean the government is knowingly allowing terrorists to purchase firearms and doing jack-all about it.
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They got close with Fast and Furious, didn't they? One could argue that drug cartels are terrorist organizations.
 
Once disgusted, now blase

Those desk-bound, pencil-pushing, self-important bureaucrats have been engaging in these antics for so long, I have ceased to be amazed by ANYTHING they try to pull. I STILL get angry and active about it, but not much surprise about it.
 
One could argue that drug cartels are terrorist organizations.
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I don't see how one could argue that they are not.
When you use death, and threat of death to get people to do what you want, how can that not be "terrorism?" (most of us do fear being killed...:rolleyes:)

What they aren't is a "political terrorist organization" under current gov definitions, which, as we all know are subject to change at any time.
 
"What they aren't is a "political terrorist organization" under current gov definitions, which, as we all know are subject to change at any time."

If the NYT and CAGV have their way, no doubt joined by Mother Jones, Bloomberg and others, the NRA will soon be declared an terrorist organization.
 
So the FBI has been checking firearms purchasers against the various "watch lists" for years, but couldn't stop a sale unless the prospective buyer was a prohibited person. Now San Bernardino has given them an excuse for new laws to make anyone on any government secret list a prohibited person.

As Rahm Emanuel famously said, "Don't let a crisis go to waste". So might a scared government facing a real terrorist problem create a crisis? An amoral administration might feel that the sacrifice of a few people would be worth it to get more gun control and ban gun purchases by real terrorists. And also by Republicans, conservatives, Jews, Blacks, ex-military, NRA members, people who don't think properly, and anyone else the leadership doesn't like at the moment. Who can be put on a watch list, and by whom? Anyone, for any reason or no reason? Might this post, or a letter to the editor, or logging on to this site get my name down as a "terrorist"? Who knows?

Of course, such powers would never be abused or used to arbitrarily deny rights. We know that because the government says so.

Jim
 
"We know that because the government says so."

Indeed. A couple years ago the IRS had a secret list targeting groups they didn't like, and wouldn't approve them for non-profit status. Various departments of .gov have shown their true colors.
 
Decades ago, when I was in the Army, and someone complained about something that was onerous, or even outright stupid, we used to say..

"It's not the Army, its the people in it!"

I believe this also applies to the rest of our government. The problem is not the system, it's the way the people (elected and non elected) IN the system use it, generally for their own personal ends.

These people understand the concept of the "Reichstag Fire" all too well (although they may not personally be educated enough to recognize that term..) they understand that a crisis is a time of opportunity for them to advance their agendas. (and not just in the area of guns and gun rights, but that is what we focus on here..)

I believe that "Fast & Furious" was meant to be such a crisis, but fizzled for their purposes because only a couple innocent people were killed before the whistle got blown on the operation.

They don't go away, and they don't give up, and as individuals fall from power, they are replaced by the next generation, with similar goals and mindsets, and willing to use similar methods whenever the opportunity presents itself.
 
It's funny; the San Bernadino terrorists sure acted like they believed the BGC was cross-listed. Used a straw-purchaser, since they didn't think they could pass the check themselves, even though neither had a criminal background (well, ajudacated, anyway) or was a prohibited person by other reasons (including the watchlist). I suspect these two (or three) knew they might be under surveillance of some sort, having connections overseas, so proceeded with caution in obtaining their firearms.

Didn't change the outcome one iota. Which proves that if their suspicions were made official, it would likewise not change one facet of their ambitions' ultimate climax.

TCB
 
These people understand the concept of the "Reichstag Fire" all too well (although they may not personally be educated enough to recognize that term..) they understand that a crisis is a time of opportunity for them to advance their agendas.
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The Reichstag Fire was deliberately set by Nazi henchmen. So you are saying that "these people" to whom you refer are deliberately fomenting crises to further their own ends?

God knows there are enough conspiracy theories floating around these days by people who claim "the government" set them all up.
 
If it is true that the 4473 forms already are checked against the no fly and terror watch lists, then the recent media frenzy is really just smoke and mirrors.
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The 4473 forms aren't checked, but the NICS background checks are.

Having secret government lists is bad enough. Giving anyone on them a thorough background check is one thing, but the current policy is to only deny if there is a real reason to.

What is currently proposed is flat out denying every name on the list just because it's on the list, not just the ones who turn out to have a real reason.
 
The Reichstag Fire was deliberately set by Nazi henchmen. So you are saying that "these people" to whom you refer are deliberately fomenting crises to further their own ends?
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The Reichstag Fire was later found to have been deliberately set by Nazi henchmen. They had their patsy perpetrator (a mentally disturbed communist IIRC) and all the "evidence" that they needed at the time, to whip up public opinion to advance their agenda.

They understand the concept quite well, they have said so in public, "Never let a crisis go to waste"...

And everyone who has ever built anything understands the concept of "if you need (want) a hole is a certain spot, and there isn't one there, you make one.."

deliberately fomenting crises??

That is a long established practice found throughout human history.
 
"It's funny; the San Bernadino terrorists sure acted like they believed the BGC was cross-listed. Used a straw-purchaser, since they didn't think they could pass the check themselves, even though neither had a criminal background (well, ajudacated, anyway) or was a prohibited person by other reasons (including the watchlist). I suspect these two (or three) knew they might be under surveillance of some sort, having connections overseas, so proceeded with caution in obtaining their firearms."

It is unclear whether the ARs were a straw purchase; but what is clear is that the two handguns recovered were purchased by the husband terrorist directly and not via a straw sale. And of course, since he was a US citizen with no record, he passed the background checks. Second, being on a watch list is not disabling for weapons purchases.
 
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