.44 Magnum SJSP VS. Hard Cast

S

Southern Shooter

New member
If you have two .44 Magnum rounds, both 240 grain, moving at 1200 FPS, and wide meplates...In terms of use in the woods for protection and hunting:

Does one have a SIGNIFICANT advantage over the other? And, if so, to what size animal are we talking effective against at the said grain, velocity, and slug design?

Thanks
 
until you start talking big animals like moose, elk, bears, JSP performs well. I use hard cast SWC for everything from targets to whatever animal.
 
The hardcast is what you want for large and or dangerous game. This stuff will break shoulders while a jsp is a good all purpose game bullet along with lead gas checks. I try not to use hp's in a pistol unlessit's a barnes bullet.
 
Go walk downrange at your local shooting range during a cease fire, and look at the ground.

You'll see a whole bunch of bullet jackets, separated from the soft swaged cores.

Hard-cast bullets stay together and penetrate deeply, cutting a .429 (or whatever) diameter sharp wound. They tend to win arguments with bone, whereas JSP and hollowpoints tend to get stopped or detoured.
 
I admit I have no practical, field knowledge on this, but in theory I see no tangible benefit for a JSP in a 44 magnum. On lighter game where a JSP would be fine, a hardcast bullet will also be fine. On heavier game where a JSP won't be as good, the hardcast will be fine. All you really get with a JSP is somewhat reduced penetration and a some expansion. But if over penetration is an issue, it will still be an with a JSP, and on animals where expansion might be preferable over more penetration, a high velocity .429 bullet will already be more than enough.
 
Back in the day, before hard cast LSWC's were as prolific as today, Elmer Kieth recommended JSP's if one could not find LSWC's.

I'd add that if JSP's were significantly more accurate than LSWC's in a particular gun they would be the better choice. Quite likely with stock revolvers and comercial hard cast LSWC's.

Either of the above is way better than hollow points.
 
Can't use lead in a desert Eagle. If I'm looking for four legged animals then I like the GDSPs. If I'm more concerned about two legged animals, I am happy to have GDHPs. Different stokes for different folks.
 
If you do the math, the 44 really isn't much bigger than a 357. It works out to about 7/100ths bigger. That isn't going to make a big difference in killing power. Bullet placement trumps every time. The advantage of the 44 is bullet weight. A heavier bullet will simply penetrate better. I'd have no reservations on using any bullet out of a 44 that was 240 grains or heavier traveling at 1200 fps on any elk sized game animal. Put the bullet in the right spot and it's going down.
 
If you do the math, the 44 really isn't much bigger than a 357. It works out to about 7/100ths bigger.
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.....and the difference between a .357 and a .32 ACP is even less than that. Still that argument is irrelevant in comparing a JSP to hardcast .44. :confused:
 
.....and the difference between a .357 and a .32 ACP is even less than that. Still that argument is irrelevant in comparing a JSP to hardcast .44.
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The relavence is that counting on a 44 dia hole to kill an animal is a waste of time. It's not hole size that kills, it's bullet placement. Hard cast SWC is so out dated it's rediculous. That's a subject Elmer Keith promoted about fifty years ago. Bullets have come a long way since then. Too many people post on here that don't have practical experience. Too many "readers" on here and not enough practical experience. I've shot a ton of big game animals with both 357 and 44 and bullet placement is of way more relavance than whether or not the 240 grain bullet is cast or JSP, or JHP.
 
That's a subject Elmer Keith promoted about fifty years ago. Bullets have come a long way since then. Too many people post on here that don't have practical experience. Too many "readers" on here and not enough practical experience. I've shot a ton of big game animals with both 357 and 44 and bullet placement is of way more relavance than whether or not the 240 grain bullet is cast or JSP, or JHP.
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The laws of physics haven't changed since old Elmer's research and development. As far as practical experience goes, I strategize like Patton, hunt like Buffalo Bill, shoot like John Wayne and look like Robert Redford. Thought I'd impress my fellow "readers" with my vivid imagination. It's just hard to find those 240 grain cast, JSP, and/or JHP .357 magnum bullets in my neck of the woods. That's probably what's holding back my experience, that and my ability to spell. Still, my fellow "readers" here whose opinions support the use of a Keith type cast SWC in .44 caliber, however primitive, will continue to be formidable hunters in the field or only in their minds if they so choose.
 
Pretty bold statement

Hard cast SWC is so out dated it's rediculous.
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and one that is nothing more than personal opinion, implying Hard cast SWCs don't work well.

They do work. They work fine. They work every bit as well as they did 50+ years ago when Elmer was using them. And they will work just as well 50 years from now.

What has changed is the quality and construction of JSP and JHP bullets. They are better than they used to be. No argument there.

And no argument that placement is the key. Hit them poorly with a 155mm howitzer and they run away. (ok, extreme, but you get the point;))

What makes the SWC work so well (at hunting velocity) is both the weight, and the shape. The wide nose and sharp shoulder of the bullet just perfom more effectively breaking bone and cutting blood vessels than a rounded nose bullet. JSP and JHP bullets get some benefit in this regard from expanding, BUT the energy used to expand the bullet means (generally) less penetration, compared to the SWC bullet.

This only matters when dealing with animals of the largest sizes, if one chooses a JSP or JHP that is properly constructed for the game intended, to start with. Not all jacketed bullets are equal. Its not such a drastic difference in calibers like .44 mag, but in other calibers, it can make a big difference.

The 125gr .357 JHP is one example. Seen as a defense load, the bullet makers have optimised it for this use. Use one on elk, and the odds of bullet failure (with proper placement, of course) go way up. Make the same shot with a hard cast SWC and the odds of bullet failure are much less.

After taking a couple deer with Rem 240gr JHP, my Dad asked me once, if there was a .44 load that would not go all the way through the deer. I told him to try 180gr, or maybe Silvertips, but there was still a good chance of complete broadside penetration.

Big hogs, bear, elk, moose, these are tougher than deer. For them, (besides placement) the most important thing is that the bullet get in to where it needs to go. Expansion is not a major concern, except if it prevents needed penetration. Note that the biggest game animals are always hunted with "solids". Hard cast SWC are the best performing handgun "solid", and also work well on lighter animals, often better than JHP/JSP on game too small/light to offer the resistance needed for the expanding bullet to open up.

Tough act to beat, even with more "modern" bullet designs.
 
As far as practical experience goes, I strategize like Patton, hunt like Buffalo Bill, shoot like John Wayne and look like Robert Redford. Thought I'd impress my fellow "readers" with my vivid imagination.
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At least we have something we agree on. Well said.
 
Nosecondbest there is a clear reason not to use JHP/JSP in a 44mag and i dont think you have considered it. If your going to go on a hike and decide hey i may need a big bore handgunn for defence, your thinking of big animals that may or may not want to eat you.

Lets take a big bear for instance. You hit him with a jhp or jsp and his very thick and tough fat layer will expand the bullet and severly limit the rounds penetration. That is why almost all dangerous game ammo is of the solid penetration variety. Sure your Jsp/jhp will create a nasty flesh wound that will get him sick later and prolly kill him with a disease, but not untill after he has gorged himself on your flesh. Now a hard cast lead swc will go through and through, smashing any bones it may encounter, not stoping to chat with the extraordinarly thick fat layer, and most likely exiting the other side. Which will cuase him to bleed out that much faster.

When it comes to dangerous game, expanding bullets will only serve to further endanger your life. In that case, you need more penetration, penetration is key to killing dangerous game such as bears. As has been pointed out already.
 
At least we have something we agree on. Well said.
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I just knew we could be friends if we both tried. :)

Now a hard cast lead swc will go through and through, smashing any bones it may encounter, not stoping to chat with the extraordinarly thick fat layer, and most likely exiting the other side. Which will cuase him to bleed out that much faster.
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I have shot two wild hogs on the river that required 3 shots head on with my preferred .41 Mag. Blackhawk and 210 JSPs. I switched to a hardcast, just shy of linotype alloy, 215 gr which anchored every subsequent beast with one shot, save one which required a second shot to put him out of his misery. Experiments on gelatin and soaked newsprint, seeking a good mild-low recoil social work load for the .41, revealed a 210 JSP and a swaged lead 210 Alberts/Taurus SWC both performed similarly @ 900fps. About 25-30% expansion of the JSP and about 35-40% on the SWC with a couple of inches more penetration from the JSP. When I used my hardcast in the same experiment, the penetration was consistently 60-70% deeper with little to no deformation. Extrapolation from this data to hunting velocities suggests the difference in penetration would be greater between the JSP and HC as the JSP would accelerate in expansion and decelerate in the travel path even faster.
 
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300 gr hardcasts and max loads of H110

are what I carry in my 329. Shoot any ungulate through both shoulders and it will die now. Should you run into something nasty, it will penetrate the skull and a lot more whereas the JSP will probably blow up.
Barnes and CorBon are the only exceptions to "lead is better" rule...they are equal (and very expensive)
 
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