44 Mag & 45 LC Question

R

Reaper

Inactive
Lets say I have 2 S&W Mountain guns, one in 44 mag the other in 45LC.Factory 44 ammo in 240 grain runs about 1300 to 1500 fps. Factory 45LC 250gr is about 900 and most say not to load 45LC hotter in these guns.

There basically the same gun! Why is it not logical to be able to load 45LC to 44mag velocities?
I guess what I'm asking is why is it ok to shoot magnum loads in one but not the other? There the same gun.:confused:
 
Reaper, The .45 Colt has a larger diameter case, and the cylinders in the two revolvers are the same size, so there is less metal in the thinnest part of the cylinder wall in a .45 Colt revolver as compared to a .44 Magnum revolver. Thinner metal means you must have less pressure to operate safely. That is the reason why the .44 Mag can be loaded with higher pressure in the same frame size (N) revolver. The "higher pressure" .45 Colt revolvers on the market, such as Rugers Blackhawk and Redhawk, Freedom Arms and the Thompson Center single shots, all have much thicker cylinder/chamber walls than the S&W N frame guns. NG Bruce
 
I don't know. Maybe because with the 45 Colt the space between the charge holes in the cylinder is thinner. Just guessing. I really don't see why handloading, while doing increases incrementally, with the 45 Colt would be a problem. Just take it very slow and back off at the first sign of high pressure.
 
That could be it I guess.:( I'm just looking for an reason not to load my 45LC a little hotter.
This caliber is capable of more.
Thanks, Guys :)
 
After reading about Elmer Keith's development leading to the 44Magnum, it makes me wonder if only the 45Colt revolver during Keith's time were beefier built. He would not have had to make the 44Magnum, instead, a hotter 45Colt load would be it, or maybe even the 454Casull.

Rugers are definitely in this class of firearm. I'm sold on modern guns, new 45Colt cases, and hotter loads. You can actually get 44Magnum velocities at equal bullet weights, and lighter pressures with the 45Colt! :eek:

Ruger 45 Redhawk
 
In reality the Model 25-5 is about 80% as strong as the Model 29 in the cylinder area. The frames are the same and are designed for a 40,000 psi load level even though we know this is a bit more than they are happy with. It's too bad S&W built a 40,00 psi cylinder and installed it in a 30,000 psi frame, so to speak. (note: since this writing S&W has worked on the problem of the cylinder unlatching and rolling back under recoil after it gets a bit worn) The 25-5 in .45 Colt is safe to 80% of the 40,000 psi of the .44 Magnum Model 29. This allows a load of 32,000 psi in this frame. I have shot hundreds of the 32,000 psi class loads listed at the beginning of this article in several Model 25-5's. Recoil is heavy due to the S&W "hump" on the grip, but I do not see these loads as being dangerous in this fine gun. I do consider 32,000 to be ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM for this gun and prefer to hold my personal loads to 5% under those listed loads for approximately 25,000 psi. I carry a S&W 4" in .45 Colt daily and shoot a 260 gr. Keith at 900 fps for general duty. When I saddle up and go into the hills I pack the same gun with a 310 gr. NEI Keith over 23 gr. H-110. This gives me about 1080 fps and all the punch I need for anything on our mountain. As with any gun and load data, work up carefully. I assume responsibility only for the ammo I myself assemble.

John Linebaugh

Since the 25-5 (1978 vintage) S&W has done changes to the N frame to strengthen the gun and keep the gun from rattling apart. Twelve hundred feet per second seems to be the happy medium for big bore handguns. The 625 has no problems getting there.
 
Modern magnum style 45 Colt Loads on an OCCASIONAL basis should not do anything other than more intensively wear the 45 Mountain Gun.

That being siad, I do not shoot heavy loads in my 44 mag Mountain gun for practice, though I do carry heavies in the filed.
 
The S&W 44mags are "barely strong enough", really...the Rugers (double action or single) are on the other hand massively overbuilt in almost every caliber.

Second, S&W doesn't do the same heat-treat on their 45LCs that they do on the 44Mags...Ruger on the other hand builds both guns to the same specs, same heat-treat on the cylinder, same on the frames, etc.

There are basically four levels of 45LC power:

1) "Cowboy grade", typcially a 230 or 250 grain at 700 - 800fps.

2) "Modern defense grade", usually 200 - 230 grain at 900 - 1,000fps. The Winchester Silvertip 45LC is the most common, with Cor-Bon's self defense 45LC and at least one Pro-Load offering falling into the same power range, usually close to or a tad above 45ACP horsepower levels. The fairly modern S&W 45LC guns can shoot these no problem, they can be shot at least occasionally in most of the Italian SAA/Remington guns *except* the breakopen Schofields in 45LC by Navy Arms, the open tops and the like.

3) "Ruger ONLY 45LC+P" - up to 325grain at 1,300fps (Buffalo Bore's best) or slightly milder 45LC+P hunting loads by Cor-Bon. These can be shot in bone-stock Ruger 45LCs (single action or double) in good condition. Most sources say that Thompson Center Contenders in 45LC can also take this stuff.

4) "Really crazy handloads for five-shot SAs or most 454Casull guns". Several gunsmiths offer 5-shot conversions for New Model Blackhawks/Vaqueros that allow handloading to near-454 levels. Such stuff can also be shot in an unmodified SuperRedhawk454. Linebaugh sometimes builds oversized, beefy 6-rd cylinders for Ruger SAs that can get close to this level (350grain at 1,400ish, sometimes hotter) but he doesn't recommend it any more, prefering five-shot cylinders.

In short: up through "level two" you've got something similar to a 45ACP or very hot 44Spl. At level 3, you're close to or sometimes above .44Mag power; per some sources you get there with less peak pressure than the 44Mag and possibly less felt recoil because while the ballistic energy may be the same, the 45LC+P spreads the bang out over a longer period. For more on the theories behind this, see also Linebaugh's "GunNotes" at:

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh
 
Frohickey: back in Keith's day, 45LC *shells* were of the old "balloon head" type, whereas 44Spl cases were of the more modern type.

THAT is why Keith didn't pursue the 45LC towards a "454 direction". The case heads blew out.

Today, 45LC shells are made the same way everything else is, we don't have the same problems Keith faced. Dick Casull and John Linebaugh's later experiments in hot 45/454 and beyond have nothing to do with "disagreements with Keith", it's about more modern brass coming available.
 
The 45LC has its limits, lower pressures than a 44 mag and thinner case walls, If you want hotter loads bye a 454 Casull, you can shoot both 45LC&454's, Dick Casull invented the 454 for that reason, he wanted a hotter round and a hearter case. I am sure this will fill your desire to shoot hotter loads, better brass almost double the pressure and puts the 44 mag to sleep for over all power. When shooting 454's then shooting 45LC, the 45LC's are like shooting a capgun;) Aim small hit small. RAMbo.
 
Rmouleart,
I have the 454 Casull in The Taurus already, but it gets a little heavy to lug around all the time. I like the weight of the Mountain gun and just would feel better with a little more ummph behind it.;)
 
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