44 Bulldog gun... OK... not 44 Bull Dog cartridge... what the heck caliber ???

M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
you've seen my other thread no doubt...

I reciently bought what looks like an unfired American Bulldog revolver... the cylinder pin was stuck, & we finally got it out, but that's where the questions begin...

the cylinder is stepped, so it's not for a heal seated bullet like the 44 Bull Dog, ( I have an original 44 Bull Dog cartridge ) the cylinder throats & barrel slug .430", & the step in the cylinder is much longer than the Bull Dog cartridge... infact, about .010" shorter than the 44 Russian cartridge

any thoughts as to what caliber this might have been ???

the barrel cylinder gap is quite large, so unless I have my guy remove the barrel & mill the end enough to screw it in one more thread rotation, & correct the barrel cylinder gap, I'll just be shooting round balls... the head space is fine for using shortened 44 special cases... I'm going to have my buddy make me a custom expander die & a custom seater die for the cartridge, but will be building a case around the measurements of the chambers... the cartridge will be much longer than the original Bull Dog cartridge
 
maybe this is a later gun, & they were going to make a Bull Dog without the heal seated bullet ???

the closest cartridge my buddy could find in his reference materials is the 10.4mm Montegrin #4, but the bullet diameter would have been like .425"... clearly smaller than the bore
 
well... without checking the serial number... ( BTW... the gun is unfired ) I'm going to assume ... er maybe, that it's a later gun, & that they chambered it for an experimental 44 Bull Dog without the heal seated bullet, & they just never made a cartridge to fit the gun...

so I'm going to call it a "44 extra special" since the special is a shorter version of a longer cartridge ( or at least thats how it ended up )

we did run the barrel in one more turn, which gives me a .005" barrel cylinder gap, instead of a .033" gap as found... so I'll be loading my shortened 44 special cases with 160 grain cast lead bullets... velocities will still have to be tame, as it's definately a soft steel era gun...

I got a great deal on this gun in the 1st place, then to find it unfired, & in an easy to load unique chambering +++

thought I better attach a pic...

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I don't think it's 44 S&W American... the numbers don't match

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my cylinder throats & bore slug .430"

also my buddy has several different 44 Bulldog cartridges, & only about 1/2 of them will go into the gun, so my chambers are tighter, & there may have been quite a varriance in the specs of the 44 Bulldog
 

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I'm with Gyvel. That's an Iver Johnson and it was chambered for the .44 Webley cartridge - just like the H&R American Double Action extra large frame revolver. According to the late Bill Goforth's Iver Johnson research the IJ AMERICAN BULLDOG could handle either the .44 Webley or the .44 (American) Bulldog.
 
Webley bullet at .444 ( acording to WIKI ) would not go through ( safely ) my .430" chamber throats, or my .430" barrel

my gun smith buddy slugged both a cylinder throat & the barrel... the barrel might actually even measure .429 at the tightest point...

I'd find it hard to believe they used .430" cylinder chamber throats & barrel on a heal seated bullet... they'd have to get squeezed down alot

here's another pic, with a mocked up cartridge ( bullet is actually the round ball that was slugged through the chamber throat, then inserted into one of the shortened 44 Special cases... it should be seated a few .001's" if loaded )

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Hmmm

The .44 American used a heeled bullet of .440" diameter according to Ken Howell in his "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges".
The .44 Webley, also known as the .442 Webley or the .442 RIC or the .442 Revolver, used a bullet of .446" diameter, according to Howell, though I have seen references to diameters as small as .436".

Donnelly in his "Manual Of Cartridge Conversions" has the .44 American bullet at .434" and the head diameter as .440" - as it used a heeled bullet and a straight walled case, the bullet should be .440".
Donnelly has the .44 Webley bullet at .436" dia. and the .44 Bulldog (which has the same rim - .503"- and head - .455" - diameter as the slightly longer Webley) at .440". The only substantial difference otherwise is case length - .69" for the Webley, .57" for the Bulldog.
Cartridge data from William C. Dowell's "The Webley Story" refers to a .442 diameter for the first model British Bulldog (.450 for later models).

So...if the barrel slugs at .430" (is that land or groove diameter?) then you are closest to the Webley (maybe). What does the cylinder measure at it breech end? The difference between head diameters of the .44 American and the two Webleys is significant.
The .44 Evans Short (.419"), the .44 Henry (.423"), the .44 Russian, all have bullets smaller than .430. The Russian at .429" is the closest match.
Pete
 
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the Russian cartridges are about .010" longer than my chambers, but otherwise seem like they should have fit better than the Webleys or the 44 Bulldogs

... & BTW... the rifling is quite shallow, even though we are sure the gun at least appears unfired... & it has a very slow twist rate ( slower than typical .429" barrels )
 
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Perhaps foolish question on my part. Did you examine the firing pin position and shape to determine if it is rimfire or center fire?
 
Winchester... not magnum... chambers are about .010" shorter than 44 special...

Dark... I had the barrel slug & gun here at work yesterday... today it's at home... I'm leaving for vacation in a day or so, so I won't have time to do anything with this until I get back
 
Winchester... not magnum... chambers are about .010" shorter than 44 special...
Click to expand...

I was obviously kidding lol!

Its a cool gun even if you never find the caliber.

Since these guns were made for carry, with pretty weak cals for the most part IE 32 rimfire, etc, do you find that you enjoy shooting say a 6 in K frame 38 special more or do like the whole experience of shooting these old smaller pistols? Just wondering. Its hard to build skill with such little guns, and I like the thrill of like a 357 magnum or even a 38. I always wondered this MWM, so I figured I'd ask you. I have a lot of vintage revolvers too but shooting them just doesn't seem interesting to me compared to say a P38 or anything else.
 
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