.40 S&W is CLEARLY superior to .45ACP

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DougB

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I know this type of debate has been going on forever, but now I am facing the question and having a tough time deciding. And, by the way, I wrote the subject line because I thought it was more likely to generate responses - NOT because I think it's true.

I plan to buy a handgun - probably an H&K USP Compact, although I'm also looking at other similarly sized guns. I'm having a tough time deciding on the caliber. Here are the tradeoffs as I see them:

.45 ACP - Bigger hole (starts as big as the .40 will probably get IF the hollow-point works), similar bullet weight (I'd probably use 185 grain HP's), slightly lower magazine capacity, most guns (USP Compact, S&W Chief's Special, etc.) are slightly larger and heavier in this caliber.

.40 S&W - Higher magazine capacity, slightly higher velocity/lower bullet weight (180 gr). Guns a little smaller (which I prefer).

In short, the .40 looks a little better "on paper", but that big .45 caliber hole is tempting. I assume that, for similar bullet weights, recoil and short-range accuracy will be about the same. If magazine capacity were the same, I'd go for the .45. If I could get 5 or 6 more rounds in the same size gun with a .40, I'd go that route (are "pre-ban" high capacity magazines available for the USP Compact?). But the difference in capacity is probably 2-3 rounds, so it's a tough call for me.

Am I missing anything? Would I be better off with a heavier (230 gr) .45 bullet or a lighter, faster .40? Your insights, opinions, and reasoning will be appreciated. Thanks.
 
IMO: The .40 is a good round, but it cannot hang with the .45.

Let's compare the 180gr .40 with the 230gr .45, since they have the same sectional density and therefore are comparable in penetration and performance.
They both have about the same velocity in full-powered rounds. All .40 ammo is "+p" maxed out. Take a "+P" 230 gr .45 and you have the same velocity as the 180gr .40 caliber.

Sooo....with the same sectional density and the same velocity, the only thing left is the diameter. The .45 clearly wins this, and can open up larger as well (well over .80") if expansion is the issue.
The extra weight of the 230gr cannot hurt either.

I like the .45. I think it is clearly a better round. Is it supremely superior? Who knows, but I sure like it.
And to top if off, the .45's felt recoil seems very pleasant like a "push" more than a "kick". I like the .45 and would give up one or two rounds to carry it. You should only need or have the time and ability to land one or two shots anyway....so make them count.

Now the 10mm on the other hand....now that has some clear advantages. Take that 180gr .40caliber bullet and move it 300 fps faster and you have a whole different animal. The same could be true of the .45 Super which takes the 230gr .45 and pushes it at least a couple hundred fps faster.
 
Maybe you should look at a Para-Ordnance. Best of both worlds with the .45 and a 14 round magazine (all inside the grip).
 
Red Bull's remarks are true for the 5" barrel Gov't Model. but the Officer's ACP drops velocity of my own version of +P fmj rounds to 645 fps. +P and +P+ are not the way to go with a short barreled .45. A well thought out load of super fast burning powder (Vitavouri) brings the velocity up to more acceptable levels. Personally, you couldn't pry my modified Gold Cup outa my hand with a crowbar. I sold the Officer's years ago. They can't tell you are packin' when you get old and pudgy, nohow.
The secret of street survival is to be able to effectively use any weapon that comes to hand. Tactics are more important than ballistics. And, if you see an opportunity to run and hide, do it.
 
The .40 is superior only if you consider
the extra rounds in its effectivness formula.
If you can be happy w/ only 8 rounds in a mag
go w/ the .45 you won't be sorry.
 
I'm new to the firing line, so I do not want to offend anybody.

I would choose the .40S&W hands down for a couple of reasons. 1)The first is one that you state, the gun are a bit smaller and easier to handle/carry. I don't remember if you mentioned what tactical role this weapon would carry but size, fit, comfort is a big deal. 2)Why are we limiting ourselves to 180gr. rounds. The top performers in this caliber are the 135gr. to 155gr. loads. These little buggers are giving .357 balistics in an easy to shoot package (with the right piece of course). 3) there is nothing wrong with the .45 and I own a couple, but I for one DO NOT believe the argument that .05 is going to make all that much difference. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Go with what you are comfortable with, no one can fault you for that. With comparible performance, doesn't a few more rounds make sense.

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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
The nice thing about a government model is that you can go out and buy different barrels and recoil springs and change to any caliber you like.

With that said, I'd say the .45 has more to offer. You can buy ammo like the Federal 165 grain hydra-shock and have the increased velocity AND a big hole.
Not enough velocity? Swap out springs and shoot .45 Super.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
.45 definantly, violent encounters are short with only 4-6 rounds fired in the entire thing, by both parties. Carry what is comfortable, I have a govt. model with 10 round mags by Chip Mccormick. If your still coming after 21 rounds of silvertips, you can have me, you deserve it. The only real argument here is for practice and shot placement. The 22LR is a one shot stop if you put it through their eye! But the last time I checked, it is very hard to hit the eye of a rapidly moving target who is trying to kill you. Go for the big bore, I was once told of a LEO hitting a 165 lb. felon square in the chest with the old "FLYING ASHTRAY" in .45 and the felon completely leaving the ground and landing 5 feet away. But most importantly, use what you like and can hit center mass with while point shooting! If your being assailed, or fired upon, you WILL NOT draw the gun to full ready, and assume the proper Weaver stance etc. etc. etc. You get the point. WHEN IN DOUBT, GO FOR CUBIC INCHES!

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DOCSpanky
"Walk softly and carry a big stick, perferably one of the 12 guage variety!"
 
40S&W is a good round for defense, but frankly I find I just shoot better with 45ACP. It recoils with greater force than the 40, true, but the 40 kicks more sharply, like a 357 Magnum, and I find it easier to get fast follow up shots with a 45. Plus, it is easier to find an accurate 45 than it is with 40. There ARE very accurate 40 guns and loads out there, but not nearly as many as there are with the 45ACP. Just MHO.
 
DOCSpanky,

That 165 pound felon who flew five feet after being shot with a .45 must have had a leg muscle spasm, because a 200 grain JHP just doesn't have enough momentum to push someone that far. Consider:

The felon weighed 5775 times as much as the bullet. Therefore, even allowing the unlikely assumption that the bullet transferred 100% of its momentum to him, and making the generous assumption that the bullet's velocity at impact was 1100 feet per second, the velocity imparted to the felon could not have been greater than about 0.2 feet per second. I guesstimate that the felon's bullet-assisted flight distance was about two and a half inches. :)

Now, I do like the .45 ACP, and I do think that anecdotal evidence has some value in evaluating ammo choices. I just want to point out the need to double-check "war stories" to make sure that they don't violate the laws of physics! :)
 
Amen to the statement by D2V
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nuttin better

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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best
 
Shot placement is everything. All else is secondary. No single handgun bullet is guarenteed to drop an assailant. Recall Henderson's book, Marine Sniper where Carlos Hathcock shoots a VC with a 30-06. The VC responded by charging!

Between the .40 S&W and .45 ACP, both has its advantages and disadvantages. I think DougB covered them pretty well.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
DougB, you're very tricky with that header. Next thing, you'll be writing advertising copy for SLICK 50. :)

Of course, none of the following matters if someone can't hit vital areas under stress.

Also, as an aside, high capacity magazines should be a consideration. Just look at the number of shots it takes on average to really stop someone, multiplied by the increased number of perps(gang members)one is likely to encounter versus 25 years ago, and high capacity mags start making real sense.

Hmmmm...Two or three shots per perp, times three or four perps? Don't think it can''t happen, even in your home. Maybe an AR-15 for home defense?

One thing that might be considered is that a bigger bullet has a greater potential to expand to a greater diameter. In other words, all other things being equal, what is the greatest expansion diameter one can expect with a smaller bullet versus a larger bullet?

Take a jacket from a 230 gr. .45, and a .40 of your choice, and smash them to a flat disk. It's not scientific, but you see my point. Nothing wrong with .40 or 10mm, but if your concern is serious self defense, it is true that the .45 (yes, even FMJ) has put down a lot more bad guys than .40 or 10 mm.
A .22 had killed a lot of people, but what does the real-life track record of calibers in general teach us? If the "old" .45 (and 9 mm) has done the job for so many decades, why do we need all of these calibers of the week?

I just can't wait for the .358, .359, .40223
SIG. It's supposed to be out by Christmas. ;)
Do we wish to be stylish or efective?(or both)

Personally, I love 10 mm's, but having been in a few shooting matches with live targets( ;)), I am a little reticent to use something without a substantial street history. Pet theories and ammo manufacturers claims just don't cut it for me.

Now, for me, .45 SUPER fits the bill. It is in the newer catagory of BIG and FAST. I shoot it mostly thru the H&K USP, and sometimes the Glock 21.

If it had a street history, it would be all that I would carry. A fast (1100 fps), accurate, large 230 gr. JHP slug(Triton) can punch large, deep holes. The only thing that stops BGs are bleed-out and /or central nervous shots. Right? Also, although you can't count on it at all, it's interesting to note that a double tap (hammer) with a +P or +P+ with a large grain .45 in the pelvis area has caused people to lose their balance and fall down.
(not from psychological shock)

Yes, I will carry the tiny 9 mm as a back-up if I can't carry two .45's. For 9 mm it's the Federal 9MMR4 +P+ Secret Service duty ammo.

If you want long term real-life street history when a proven track record versus the .40 or the 10 mm, it's the .45.

Good Luck

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David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit
 
Guys,

Who cares! If you want a big, unwieldy gun to shoot get a 4+ inch 357 revolver. If you want a round that is proven, accurate, availible in the best designs, and will be availible when George W Bush or Al Gore comes for your guns, get a 9x19! All of these non-military calibers will be a moot point then.

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited August 30, 1999).]
 
I like the 40 myself. I have never had problems shooting it or reloading it. The 45 is a fine cartridge as well, but I believe the size advantage of the 40 beats the 45 in my book. I have found most double-action or Glock pistols in the 45 are out of proportion for my hands, and I don't shoot them as well as a 9mm or a 40. But this is just my personal experiance,but then again the people I talked to that carry a gun for either work or just self defence seem to favor the 9mm and the 357mag.
 
.40 has more ME (generally), .45 has more PF (generally) and bigger hole. I think they are so close together in performance as to be negligible, bordering on infantessimable (sp?) difference. Having said that, I like the .45 with 165gr @ 1250 fps (Quik-Shok).
 
The .45acp has been around for almost a hundred years now. Cartridges don't get that old unless they work and work well.
The 40 is relativly new still and there are still questions about it and on going experiments regarding bullet weight and velocity. Remember that when the .40 first came out it was hyped as the ultimate handgun cartridge. But it was soon found that the original 180gr loads weren't all they were cracked up to be. The forty has been a compromise from the very begining. First it was born as a compromise for the 10mm that the FBI agents didn't like and couldn't shoot, Then it became a compromise between the 9mm and .45acp. We all know what compromise gets you, something that is not quite either thing and usually not as good as what you started with.
I don't care much for the .40. I don't hate it, but it is not one of my first choices for a defensive caliber. The 9mm is good, the .45acp is better and the .40 S&W is neither.
 
I usually try to avoid all of these discussions, but I would like to comment that even though a .45 is only .05 inches larger than a .40 it creates a considerable difference in wound volume.

For example if we assume that both rounds expand 50% (which I think is reasonable) and both penetrate to 12 inches a .40 creates a permanent cavity of 3.39 cu. inches and a .45 creates 4.29 cu. inches.

bkm

(8/30 corrected a math error that greatly overstated wound volume, but a .45 still produces 26% more volume)
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Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

[This message has been edited by Dorcas (edited August 31, 1999).]
 
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