40 S&W and RED DOT

G

Gregory Gauvin

New member
I'm trying to use up the last bit of Red Dot powder I have on hand and would like to make up a few lite .40 loads. I know this powder is not ideal for the 40 S&W, but I am having a hard time finding any published data.

I'm loading 155 grain Lead laser cast bullets to 1.135".

According to my manuals I see a 155 grain lead load for Bullseye for a charge weight of 4.6 - 4.9 grains.

I have a 150 grain jacketed round listed for Red Dot at 5.3 - 5.9 grains.
Also, a 170 grain XTP with a Red Dot charge of 4.6 - 5.1 grains.

I would assume a safe starting charge would be 4.0 grains, judging by what I see above. Probably approaching mid to max at around 4.6 grains? I know Red Dot and Bullseye are NOT the same. Curious as to if anyone has used Red Dot in a 155 grain lead round before. Looking to lob them 950-1000 ft/sec. Not interested in even attempting to running them hot, just would like to varify a safe starting charge weight. Thanks.
 
I can't offer any help but I want to follow the thread. I picked up a pound of Blue Dot yesterday to use with my 40 S&W. Good luck with your Red Dot.
 
Like Snyper says. If you can't find a published load for a specific powder and a specific caliber don't use it. Unless of course you don't care if your firearm or hand gets distroyed.
 
Brian Enos' forum has lots of people experimenting with red dot in .40. You might find something you like there.

Last year, I tried 3.2, 3.4, and 3.6 grains of E3 (a very similar powder) under a 155 grain plated bullet in my Glock 22. The 3.2 grain charge just barely cycled the slide. I don't think my velocity was anywhere near what you are looking for.
 
I'm loading 155 grain Lead laser cast bullets to 1.135".
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True, Red Dot is not ideal for your application (Red Dot is only ideal for light shotgun loads, IMO, it's not really a handgun powder), but you can make it work. The good news is you have a light lead slug, so it's going to propel down the barrel with ease. This is going to give you safety margin.

According to my manuals I see a 155 grain lead load for Bullseye for a charge weight of 4.6 - 4.9 grains.
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All this is telling you is that a fast, high energy powder (Bullseye) can be used in the application. If you can use Bullseye for an application, you can use Red Dot. But, there is no "crossover" with the data - they are apples n oranges in terms of charge weight, so disregard the grainage.

I have a 150 grain jacketed round listed for Red Dot at 5.3 - 5.9 grains. Also, a 170 grain XTP with a Red Dot charge of 4.6 - 5.1 grains.
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This is the most useful data you have. A 150gn jacketed bullet is going to behave very close to a 155gn lead. I'd venture to say that this data is nearly interchangeable with your application. The jacketed 170gn data is telling you that there is no need to go below its 4.6gn. If 4.6gn is safe with a jacketed 170, it'll be safe for a 155gn lead. If I were in this situation, given this information, I would start at 5.0gn without hesitation or worry.


P.S.

I picked up a pound of Blue Dot yesterday to use with my 40 S&W. Good luck with your Red Dot.
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Good luck with your Blue Dot.

I'd much rather have the Red Dot. I can not see Blue Dot being used for any application for 40 S&W. Frustration will abound.
 
While in the Gun Shop where I bought the Blue Dot there were 3 reloading manuals that all listed Blue Dot with a 175 grain lead bullet. Range was 7.2 - 9 grains. The Lee 0.7cc dipper cup will hold 8 grains according to the slider chart supplied with the dipper cups. I cast my own 175 grain lead bullets from the Lee Truncated Cone micro-groove mold and use Liquid Alox as the lube. 8 grains is where I will start with Blue Dot the next time I cast some bullets. My powder preference for the 40 S&W is HS-6 but they did not have any of that.
 
Go to the Official online load data thread at the top of this board. Then locate my post #10 for link to the older Alliant/Hercules load data pamphlets circa mid-90's. These include pistol loads for shotgun powders. The loads are still valid, but Alliant has introduced better pistol powders since then. Alliant will confirm the loads are still good by emailing you the same data. If you don't find a usable load there, then don't do it.

I picked up a pound of Blue Dot yesterday to use with my 40 S&W. Good luck with your Red Dot.
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Alliant 1995 list 40 S&W loads for Blue Dot and Red Dot. find it here:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/default.html
 
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Snyper, you are very much correct. No assumptions should be made when it comes to reloading.

However, perhaps I used the wrong wording. I knew that there was published data for Red Dot and heavier lead bullets (such as 180 grainers). As an experienced re-loader, and following common practices and principles, going to a lighter bullet (and shorter bullet, therefore, lowering pressures by increasing case volume), should not cause a catastrophe. Noting a fast powder like Bullseye also works with 155 grain lead, granted charge weights are not interchangeable, should be valued criteria that Red Dot power should function with a 155 grain projectile.

I contribute the lack of published data for such a load because of the inefficiency, and the likelihood of someone trying to push a 155 grain bullet to its nominal velocity of 1200 ft/sec with a super fast powder, which, will ultimately make for a hospital visit. But instead of "I would assume" I should have said "evidence suggests" a light target load, not exceeding 1000 ft/sec, could be produced with these combinations of components.
 
Here's another +1 on what Nick said per the Blue Dot. It lists at the same burn rate as Accurate #7 on the charts but it is a different animal. Proceed with caution......
 
Blue Dot

A word on Blue Dot: It's just persnickity stuff. Like Red Dot, it should probably remain in the shotgun realm.

I agree that its burn rate is right there with AA7; but it's not AA7 (as Shotgun Slim said). AA7 runs clean an uniform - even when it's underloaded a little. Even at that, I would still be reluctant to use AA7 in all but the heaviest loads in 40 Cal. 10mm Auto is a much better home for it. I digress. . .

If I were loading 40 Cal with Blue Dot, I'd look toward heavy jacketed bullets. 180 grainers - and be prepared to load them up real good. That's the only place where BD is going to run worth a darn. Otherwise, they're going to be a sooty, inconsistent burning mess.
 
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If there's no published data, it's usually for a good reason
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I too use lead 155 grain in 40S&W. When I called Hodgdon the tech support guy told me NO ONE LOADS 155 GRAIN LEAD IN 40S&W. Guess all those lead bullet makers are just making fishing weights that weigh 155 grains.
 
Yes, we must be odd balls. I know of no one who loads 155 grain 40SW loads. My personal choice stemmed around that fact that the lighter bullet (and shorter than 180) would allow for a margin of safety as every KABOOM I have heard of came about when utilizing 180 grain rounds. You have practically, NO WINDOW to play with in terms of OAL, and that 180 grain seats deep. Seating a 155 to 1.135" (max OAL), provides more case volume and I can run them at lower pressures and reduced recoil. The 155 grainers could also probably take a .01" set back and not give you a case head separation, where .001" set back on a 180 grain max load makes parts fly. I had chosen to load 155, because my initial carry load was the Winchester Ranger 155 JHP. Not popular anymore. It appears the 180s are the best (consistent) performers along with 165 and those odd 170 grain things. I think most people like the "push" recoil of the 180 over the "snap" of the 155. 155's weight less, they are cheaper...you know what, I honestly don't even like the caliber. But plated bullets are practically the same cost as lead now, so, I will and have already purchased 165 grain plated bullets.
 
I have several pounds of SR4756 specifically purchased for 40, and 9, and I guess I'll have to use it in .45 acp as well since my local shop doesn't have Red Dot now. I was using Red Dot in .45 ACP. Go go to powder was HS-6 for all 3 calibers.

I found the felt recoil between the slow HS-6 and fast burning Red Dot in .45 ACP to be of significant difference in character. The slower powder gives you that traditional .45 push, while the Red Dot has little push but more snap like a 9mm. Side by side comparison I did not think the difference would be significant; as I had grown accustom to HS-6. The choice of powder, regardless of velocities - I was running both loads probably 830 - can make your gun feel like a completely different animal. I knew variation would exist as the pressure curves are vary different, however, if shooting competition and wanting to cut your split times, the choice of powder plays such more a role than making reduced power loads. I would imagine defensive ammunition manufacturers compromise to use the most economical powder that will yield the desired velocity with least flash and recoil. While as, cheap "defensive loads" developed for the low spenders run the same Chinese firecracker powder they put in their under powdered over priced FMJ target loads.

I have found, out of all manufacturers of ammunition for target loads, (including your TOP name ones) the most accurate, consistent, and least variation in OAL to be blue boxed PPU stuff (Prvi Partizan). I read it is made in Serbia. It is significantly more accurate than WWB or FC. WWB being a popular box, is not priced any lower than the PPU stuff in my area at least. And I have found that WWB has the greatest variations in OAL. Nonetheless, I tend to prefer WIN brass for reloading.
 
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