.40 or .45?

L

long shot

New member
Thanks to everyone here on TFL that replied to my various posts, I have narrowed my choices down to a G-21 or a Beretta 96 G Elite.

Out Of these full sized pistols, which calibers "ballistics" do you prefer, the .40 or the .45?

All opinions are appreciated, as this will help me make my final decision.

Thanks in advance,
long shot!
 
If you go with the ABSOLUTE BEST loads of both (say, the top 25%), then the .40S&W seems to have the edge are reported by Marshall & Sanow and The Facklerites.`Using anything other than the best loads, the .45ACP comes out clearly head.
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FUD
 
Hello. As has been stated, it is very possible that with the best loads, the forty may beat the old .45ACP. Still, I prefer the forty-five to the forty by a very wide margin. This is because the forty-five is a low pressure/high momentum round and the forty's a high pressure/high momentum round.
The latter translates to be harder on the gun for the long haul. I shoot my pistols quite a lot. Personally, I've found the forty-five easy to find accurate handloads for where the forty has been more difficult. The "fact" that the forty MAY be a better stopper does not mean that the forty-five is anything less than it's been all along. I don't knock or begrudge anyone wanting a forty, but I own one and that's enough. One cannot have "enough" forty-fives (or Browning HP 9mms!) Best to all.
 
I've shot both guns and calibers quite a bit.

I think the 155/165 40s and 357 SIG have an edge on the 45, and the 45 on the +P 9s in pure stopping, but not by much since they are all so close. I enjoy shooting the 45 more, couldn't really tell ya why, just do.

I finally chose the G21/30 and Ruger P97 in 45 over the Berettas, SIGs, USPs, Rugers, S&W/Walthers, BHPs, CZs, etc I've been going round n round with the last 2 years in 9/40/45/357. Not the best choices for CCW, but it can be done.

For today anyway. :)

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http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
 
Totally non-ballistics comment you might want to think about (if you haven't already) -- availability of ammunition outside the big city gunstores. I bought .45 a couple years ago for just that reason, figuring as a "classic" caliber I could find it just about anywhere.

Imagine my surprise this year when, while driving through the mountains of Northern Idaho, I came across a tiny "everything" store in a tiny town, and found:
a little 9mm, a fair amount of .40, and absolutely NO .45.

The times are changing, I guess. For what it's worth, I reckon that means just seeing what's being sold near where you live.
 
Long Shot,

I shoot several .40 S&Ws (Glock 23 and Sig P-226) and several .45 ACPs (Kimber and Colt 1911A1s and Sig P-220). I agree with Mr. Camp's thoughts re the overall advantages of the comparatively low pressure .45 ACP round in terms of reliability and durability.

Let me add a further reason to opt for the .45 ACP: Expansion. A .45 ACP round -- even a non-expanding FMJ -- will always be at least .451 inches in diameter. Presuming a very conservative one-third expansion ratio, it will grow to .60 inch. On the other, a .40 S&W round, using the same conservative ratio, will expand to .53 inches.

IMHO, the proven stopping capability of .45 ACP loads is indisputable. The .40 S&W is, without doubt, also an excellent defensive round, but I do not believe it has the same defensive power under all potential conditions (such as multiple layers of winter clothing) as the venerable .45.

Fud and several analytical studies give the edge to the .40 S&W round. I respect those sources, however, I suggest that ninety years of demonstrated performance -- where it really counts -- supports the .45 ACP's efficacy.


[This message has been edited by RWK (edited August 20, 2000).]
 
I shoot both and prefer the 40S&W. The advantage of the 45 IMHO is a softer recoil due to lower pressure. You can get some mighty fine rounds in either though.
 
There are so many factors to consider anymore. I had a Glock 22, I could fire it accurately and everything, but I just didn't like the recoil of the .40 which kind of showed the more I shot it. In 9mm and .45acp i have no problem. As for performance they all "Can Do". Our local police carry Sigs in .40 auto, yesterday they had a situation where they had to fire . Hit the subject in the chest, individual was able to run out of the house from the second floor, go across the street jump off the bridge down an 8' embankment run across another street into wooded area along a creek. Did the .40 fail? Would the outcome have been different if they used a .45acp? Who knows, in life there are no guarantees.
 
I think RWK says it all.Expansion is a iffy thing and depends on where the round hits, angle and other factores.In media a 40 might look as good but the test is in ideal conditions not in the field.With 45 even with no expansion it is a large dia bullet and its stopping power has been proven.
The chamber pressure is allso a factor as mentioned.If you handload a minor goof in 40 could easly end up with a blown pistol.In a 45 not because the chamber pressures are so low to start with.
The G-21 is a fine handgun if it fits you.Glock doesn't fit my hand so it will not point well.Sig does so that is my choice.Might just as well plug my favorites too.


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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
The real point of the last story is that any pistol round is marginal when it really comes to stopping power. Stopping power is a couple of SP .308's to the center of mass, anything less is "maybe" stopping power. Pistols are just so much more convenient than a rifle slung over your shoulder, so you're far more likely to have one when you need a gun.
 
Mas Ayoob recently wrote of some slaughter house testing that I think makes the point some are trying to get across here. He tested all kinds of different calibers and loads on steers that were to be put down for butchering,some worked great some didn`t. Some calibers and loads put them down a little faster than any .45ACP load but,from time to time they would all "fail" and take a second shot to bring the animal down in a humane amount of time. The only caliber that consistantly put them down with one shot was .45ACP. It didn`t always do it the fastest or with the most damage but it *always* got the job done. I guess that`s one reason I traded my last .40 for a .45. :) FWIW though .40*&* is nothing to sneeze at is certainly very effective. The choice should probably be based more on which gun you like and shoot better rather than on caliber. Marcus
 
RWK, I gave an EDGE to the .40S&W ONLY when comparing the BEST in both calibers. Anything other than that, and the .45ACP is the CLEAR winner. Regards, FUD.

By the way, for whatever it's worth, prior to buying my 10mm, whenever a gator approached my property, it was a .45ACP that I grabbed and not a .40S&W.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 20, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marcus:
Mas Ayoob recently wrote of some slaughter house testing that I think makes the point some are trying to get across here....[/quote]

Elmer Keith did slaughterhouse testing as well, years ago. While EK preferred the 45acp over all the other auto pistol cartridges (and so do I), he conceded that the 38 Super was a much better steer killer, out penetrating the 45. The 45 was hard pressed to penetrate a bovine skull. While the 45acp might prove superior with "body" shots over the smaller diameter calibers, no one would attempt to humanely kill cattle with a body shot. All EK's shooting references were with FMJ.


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Just one of the Good Guys
 
I would just like to make a correction in the post I made referring to that police shooting. In this mornings paper they have corrected themselves and stated the perp was shot in the shoulder. This makes it more reasonable as to why this guy ran like he did.
 
Based on your gun choices, I'd go with the Beretta/40.

And if I was civilian I'd load it with 135g JHP's.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Goodguy,not to get too far off track but that`s interesting. I`d love to see some of Kieths writing on the matter. It may be a matter of range and angle. Just about everything above .380 penetrated the skulls regularly for Ayoob at arms length range. FWIW a local butcher shop I know of uses an old rusty .22 rifle for dispatching live critters that are brought in. :) Marcus
 
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