.40 cal vs 357Sig
- Thread starter Marcus46
- Start date
killer45auto
New member
penetration through bariers
Penetration might be the right answer ... Looking at the reloading info, it doesn't have an edge on energy or even velocity for a given weight bullet. I've heard it said that bottleneck cartridges feed more reliably ... but my USP40C has NEVER misfed ... so I just see it as a pain to reload since you have to use lube on the bottlenecked cases. When I bought my .40, I assumed I'd eventually get a .357Sig barrel for it ... but now I'm pretty sure I'll be passing.
Saands
Saands
I cannot agree with you more saands. My USP .40C has given me nothing more than I have expected from it....reliability and power. Owned for nearly a year, and not one problem.....well, the only problem I have run into is that I can't say enough about how depandable HK is!!! For a fast, accurate, powerful, and relatively easy to find round, .40 is the way to go...
JJC
JJC
VictorLouis
New member
I can't see it as any better than a Triton or CorBon 135gr load in .40. They do 1300-1350fps from most barrels.
This is from the FTI website:
.357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?
Several readers have contacted us to ask for our opinion of the .357 SIG cartridge, and its effectiveness for personal defense use, particularly when loaded with a 125-grain JHP bullet. Our usual response is that it demonstrates adequate performance, meaning that the bullets are capable of penetrating deeply enough to potentially inflict an effective wound. But it doesn't seem to perform any better than current 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP bullets in terms of penetration and expansion.
We feel .357 SIG appeals to people who are preoccupied with velocity and kinetic energy more than with producing effective wound trauma.
The velocity of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet doesn't appear to make it superior in penetrating automotive sheet metal, windshield glass or other hard barrier materials than existing 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP JHP bullets. In fact, .357 SIG demonstrates virtually identical performance characteristics as the other cartridges when fired through hard barrier materials.
To ensure JHP bullets wouldn't over-expand and fragment when propelled at .357 SIG velocities, most bullet manufacturers couldn't simply take existing 9mm 124-grain JHP bullets, install them in .357 SIG cases and pronounce the result as ".357 SIG 125-grain JHP," because this would be a step backwards.
Existing 9mm 124-grain bullets, designed for nominal 9mm velocities, would over-expand, fragment and under-penetrate. Essentially, they'd be re-inventing the 9mm 115-grain JHP +P+ cartridge. Therefore, the ammo companies had to design sturdier JHP bullets specifically for the .357 SIG; ones that wouldn't over-expand and fragment in bare gelatin.
They succeeded in designing such bullets, but the bullets appear to be so resistant to over-expansion that they under-expand when passing through clothing. As a result, in shootings involving clothed people (the most common scenario), the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet will more than likely over-penetrate and exit the body.
In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.
In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.
Perhaps in the future the ammo companies will be able to develop better 125-grain bullets for the .357 SIG. But until this happens we feel .357 SIG is a solution to a non-problem.
Feel the need for speed? You'd be better armed with a standard velocity (1100-1150 fps) .40 S&W 165-grain JHP.
Tom
http://firearmstactical.com/index.html
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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
.357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?
Several readers have contacted us to ask for our opinion of the .357 SIG cartridge, and its effectiveness for personal defense use, particularly when loaded with a 125-grain JHP bullet. Our usual response is that it demonstrates adequate performance, meaning that the bullets are capable of penetrating deeply enough to potentially inflict an effective wound. But it doesn't seem to perform any better than current 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP bullets in terms of penetration and expansion.
We feel .357 SIG appeals to people who are preoccupied with velocity and kinetic energy more than with producing effective wound trauma.
The velocity of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet doesn't appear to make it superior in penetrating automotive sheet metal, windshield glass or other hard barrier materials than existing 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP JHP bullets. In fact, .357 SIG demonstrates virtually identical performance characteristics as the other cartridges when fired through hard barrier materials.
To ensure JHP bullets wouldn't over-expand and fragment when propelled at .357 SIG velocities, most bullet manufacturers couldn't simply take existing 9mm 124-grain JHP bullets, install them in .357 SIG cases and pronounce the result as ".357 SIG 125-grain JHP," because this would be a step backwards.
Existing 9mm 124-grain bullets, designed for nominal 9mm velocities, would over-expand, fragment and under-penetrate. Essentially, they'd be re-inventing the 9mm 115-grain JHP +P+ cartridge. Therefore, the ammo companies had to design sturdier JHP bullets specifically for the .357 SIG; ones that wouldn't over-expand and fragment in bare gelatin.
They succeeded in designing such bullets, but the bullets appear to be so resistant to over-expansion that they under-expand when passing through clothing. As a result, in shootings involving clothed people (the most common scenario), the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet will more than likely over-penetrate and exit the body.
In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.
In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.
Perhaps in the future the ammo companies will be able to develop better 125-grain bullets for the .357 SIG. But until this happens we feel .357 SIG is a solution to a non-problem.
Feel the need for speed? You'd be better armed with a standard velocity (1100-1150 fps) .40 S&W 165-grain JHP.
Tom
http://firearmstactical.com/index.html
------------------
A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
riddleofsteel
New member
having shot both i still like the .40 S&W. i carried a .400 cor@bon for a while and it was nice. reloading a bottleneck pistol cartridge is a pain. more like a rifle procedure. if you shoot like i do you don't have time to mess with lubbing pistol shells. i guess that is why no bottleneck cartridge has made the cut until recent years and even then only with a mass advertising/gunrag promotion. my gut level reaction...they don't do anything a straight shell will do and are more trouble.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
The .357 Sig does what the .40 cannot. Whoever said that they are the same in energy etc is very wrong. The .357 Sig can push up to 600 ft-lbs of energy. The .40 hovers around 500 in the higher energy loads.
If you compare a 135gr .40 to a 125gr .357 Sig you are comparing apples and oranges. The 135gr .40 has the sectional density of a frisbee flying sideways - no penetration.
The modern 125gr .357 Sig has way more energy than any .40 caliber load and it still penetrates to 16 inches. The energy dump and wound profile look almost exactly like the .357 Magnum only out of a better, smaller, higher capacity, lower recoiling, higher velocity, higher energy package.
In short:
You can find .40 loads that have almost as much energy (135gr .40). You can find .40 loads that penetrate almost as well (165gr+).
But, you will NOT find a .40 load that can do BOTH.
That is were the .357 Sig, ballistically, steps in. A 125gr .357 Sig load delivers more energy than the highest energy .40 loads but with more penetration ability than the best .40 penetrators. All this out of ONE load. No compromise.
If you go with the .40 then you are well enough off, but the .357 Sig is ballistically better in myriad ways.
If you don't want the deeper penetrators but more of an energy dump and fragmenting round then go with CorBon or Triton and you will see identical performance to the old legendary .357 Magnum loads.
There are other advantages too, especially if you shoot a Glock, but the ballistics advantages are there.
If you compare a 135gr .40 to a 125gr .357 Sig you are comparing apples and oranges. The 135gr .40 has the sectional density of a frisbee flying sideways - no penetration.
The modern 125gr .357 Sig has way more energy than any .40 caliber load and it still penetrates to 16 inches. The energy dump and wound profile look almost exactly like the .357 Magnum only out of a better, smaller, higher capacity, lower recoiling, higher velocity, higher energy package.
In short:
You can find .40 loads that have almost as much energy (135gr .40). You can find .40 loads that penetrate almost as well (165gr+).
But, you will NOT find a .40 load that can do BOTH.
That is were the .357 Sig, ballistically, steps in. A 125gr .357 Sig load delivers more energy than the highest energy .40 loads but with more penetration ability than the best .40 penetrators. All this out of ONE load. No compromise.
If you go with the .40 then you are well enough off, but the .357 Sig is ballistically better in myriad ways.
If you don't want the deeper penetrators but more of an energy dump and fragmenting round then go with CorBon or Triton and you will see identical performance to the old legendary .357 Magnum loads.
There are other advantages too, especially if you shoot a Glock, but the ballistics advantages are there.
riddleofsteel
New member
if ft/lbs were the primary factor i would agree that the .357 Sig was tops. but ft/lbs is a poor indicator. instead check out the Taylor Knock Out factors on the .357 Sig, .357 magnum, .40 S&W, 10mm and the .45 ACP. as far as pure ability to penetrate, that is a poor indicator also. most, if not all P.D.'s that purchased .357 magnum revolvers did not issue or keep issuing .357 magnum ammo for long. most used +P .38 special duty ammo. check the records, over penetration and difficulty in training shooters in heavier .357 mag loads were a concern even in the late 50's. how deep do you think a semi-jacketed or hollow point 125 grain .357 bullet at 1300+ will penetrate in a human chest or abdomen? i have seen the wounds on the autopsy table and it looks like a large firecracker went off in the body. same profile as the lighter .40 and .45 high velocity rounds. it is the old chess nut of big bullets and large PWC's and fast smaller bullets and hydrostatic damage. we went thru all that in the 70's and early 80's. Bill Jordon, Elmer Keith, and Sketter Skelton and others thought the ideal law enforcement round would be about .41 caliber and be about 180 grains and be traveling about 1000 FPS+ 0r -. after many years of listening to this debate et nausem i think i agree with the following: .357 or 9mm 115 to 125 grain, .40 or 10mm 155 to 165 grain, .45 180 to 230 grain all at velocity appropriate and safe for that caliber. a hit from any of these numbers in the boiler room and you have had a bad day, even if you are not shooting the latest, greatest death ray lazer pistol. JMHO
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
It was my understanding that the TEXAS DPS did it's own tests after several failures of their .45 to penetrate car bodies and windshields and stop the perps. They tried many different loads and calibers and decided on the SIG357, because of identical ballistic charactersitics to the .357 mag. This gave them the stopping power of the .357 mag (without the felt recoil of the revolver) along with its ability to penetrate various media and produce kills. They never said it was the best manstopper for street or civilian use (althought it has an excellent reputation for that), but worked well in the environment most troopers would find themselves working the highways. I assume other state DPS organizations are of the same opinion. I believe overpenetration should be high on the list of concerns of most private citizens, who carry for self defense.
riddleofsteel
New member
that is all fine if you are a state patrolman. i think the need for the public to penetrate vehicle windshields and car bodies is somewhat limited. although from what i have seen, in autopsy standard 125 grain .357 bullets expand violently in the human body (read chest and torso) and i doubt that over penetration would be much problem unless the hollowpoint plugged up. a 125 grain Golden Saber in .357 Sig might be interesting. my point is that much like the gun rag rifle caliber debate, it is not worth trading guns over. if you are buying a new gun or getting an extra barrel fine. i still say the key to survival is practice and not many of us could afford to buy all the .357 Sig ammo that we would need to stay sharp. at least not at the prices i have seen. also as i said earlier, reloading bottleneck cases is SLOOOOOWWWW compared to straight cases. but i guess new toys will always be a rich man's game
------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
FYI - .357 Sig ammo in my area is only 50 cents more per box for practice ammo than .40 caliber. The price has come down a lot as it has picked up popularity.
Since reloading is not an issue for most, Blazer ammo is a good choice too at around $8 a box on the 'net if you shop.
I have also found remanufactured .357 Sig on the 'net for about $150 a case, or a little over $110 a case if you trade brass in.
The Gold Dots will stay together better for penetration, but I like to load the top of my mag with CorBon because it expands and fragments violently like the old .357 Magnum is known to do.
I respect Firearms Tactical, but I fail to see how he/"they" can chastise an entire cartidge because of ONE ammo type tested. I mean, it seems apparent that he tested one ammo type and it failed to expand well through clothing or something, so he has written off the whole cartridge as a waste.
If we tested one load from the .40 line and it did not expand through clothing, do we kiss off the entire cartridge and caliber? No way, you look for a different and better bullet design to suit your purpose. There are a number of good loads coming out in .357 Sig and if one load (I suspect I know which one it is) did not perform as he liked, then there are others that will. I expect that CorBon with it's softer bullet would expand like crazy through clothing. Anyway, I don't see the point of kissing off an entire cartridge because of one poor test of one bullet design. Seems like Shawn at FT really loves to "debunk" things and maybe is a little too quick on the trigger this time.
If there is a bad bullet design out there that does not expand well through clothing, then the world needs to known about it, and that design needs to be revised, and in the meantime we need to look to other designs that do perform better. It would be much more PRODUCTIVE to list SPECIFICALLY (since this round is in development and new ones are coming out all the time) what bullet design did not do well in his tests so that we can avoid it, and then test others and find which ones work well for now. But, instead he chooses to bash the whole cartridge line and tell us the entire cartridge concept sucks. Makes no sense to me.
Since reloading is not an issue for most, Blazer ammo is a good choice too at around $8 a box on the 'net if you shop.
I have also found remanufactured .357 Sig on the 'net for about $150 a case, or a little over $110 a case if you trade brass in.
The Gold Dots will stay together better for penetration, but I like to load the top of my mag with CorBon because it expands and fragments violently like the old .357 Magnum is known to do.
I respect Firearms Tactical, but I fail to see how he/"they" can chastise an entire cartidge because of ONE ammo type tested. I mean, it seems apparent that he tested one ammo type and it failed to expand well through clothing or something, so he has written off the whole cartridge as a waste.
If we tested one load from the .40 line and it did not expand through clothing, do we kiss off the entire cartridge and caliber? No way, you look for a different and better bullet design to suit your purpose. There are a number of good loads coming out in .357 Sig and if one load (I suspect I know which one it is) did not perform as he liked, then there are others that will. I expect that CorBon with it's softer bullet would expand like crazy through clothing. Anyway, I don't see the point of kissing off an entire cartridge because of one poor test of one bullet design. Seems like Shawn at FT really loves to "debunk" things and maybe is a little too quick on the trigger this time.
If there is a bad bullet design out there that does not expand well through clothing, then the world needs to known about it, and that design needs to be revised, and in the meantime we need to look to other designs that do perform better. It would be much more PRODUCTIVE to list SPECIFICALLY (since this round is in development and new ones are coming out all the time) what bullet design did not do well in his tests so that we can avoid it, and then test others and find which ones work well for now. But, instead he chooses to bash the whole cartridge line and tell us the entire cartridge concept sucks. Makes no sense to me.
Peter M. Eick
New member
Currently owning 2 40's and 1 357 sig, I have a more pragmatic answer. To the reloader I can shoot the sig for less money then I can the 40's because the 9mm bullets are cheaper in bulk, in general. Also on a hot load the sig works the comp better.
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P229 Sport and 357 SIG, Perfection!
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P229 Sport and 357 SIG, Perfection!