4 with 3 shots..........

Here is a link to a much more detailed account from the New York Times newspaper:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...r-fires-on-4-robbers-killing-2-police-say/?hp


And here is a photo of the scene outside the store, while police investigated:

14robberyblog.jpg



One robber dropped dead just outside the store. Another died a short while later, after being rushed to a hospital. A 3rd robber walked 12 blocks to a hospital to seek aid, and was arrested there. The 4th robber was found nearby by police, also injured by the shotgun blasts.

One of the robbers was armed with a 9mm Glock, and was using it to pistol-whip a store employee, when the store's 72 year old owner came out from the back of the store armed with his 12 gauge Winchester Defender pump action.

I'm truly amazed that the police have failed so far to arrest the owner for owning an unregistered shotgun, which is a clear crime in New York. Perhaps they and the District Attorney believe that no jury would convict him??



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The fact of the pistol being used to beat a employee certianly adds some weight to the owners justification.

It is instructive that he was able to get off 3 shots as fast as he aparently did.

Kind of makes the case for a shotgun, assuming the space, as a defensive weapon. Seems a good bet that he'd never have done so well with a pistol.

And this too, I think the repercussions to his having a "unregestered" shotgun will be less than if he had a handgun. Seems that the scared among us are really scared of handguns. Of course the forgoing makes you wonder why....
 
Here are two good accounts from the New York Daily News that have a lot more details:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/08/13/2009-08-13_harlem_biz_owner.html


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...o_opens_shop_day_after_fatally_shooting_.html


alg_robbery_scene.jpg



The clerk who had been pistol whipped and had the gun put to his head was really in a rage after the shooting, and screamed at the body of the dead gunman who had threatened him with death: "You were going to kill me, well, look at you now, you are DEAD!"

Much later, a woman came by and lit a candle on the sidewalk outside the store for the souls of the two dead robbers. However, the abused clerk came out of the store, and proceeded to kick over the candle. The woman said to him: "Have a heart" However, he is said to have replied to her: " F_ _ _ 'em!!"

It turns out that the gunman, James Morgan, 29, of Manhattan, was a convicted drug dealer. The others were all 21 with no records, but were all known to police. Morgan's mother was interviewed by the press and said: "He was a good man and a wonderful son".

"He didn't have to shoot my son" said the mom, who declined to give her name. "It was a clear homicide. It was murder. It's on his conscience."


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good man and a wonderful son
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Absolutely no where near being a "good man" and no wonderful son commits a felony saddening his momma or worse... getting his guts blown out for picking the wrong guy to rob!
As for the store keeps conscience... He is back at work today!:D
Brent
 
A pistol gripped shotgun used by a 72 year old man who had barely shot it before...puts the lie to all the PG shotgun naysayers, now, dosn't it?
 
What strikes me is that a man who is admittedly not a hunter or a target shooter and therefore in all likelyhood not very familiar with his shotgun managed to accomplish this.

What a shotgun looses in concealability it sure makes up for in effectiveness, ease of use and intimidation factor.
 
Police say Augusto didn't have a permit for the gun. But no charges have been filed.
Click to expand...

Did that good son have a permit for his pistol or a permit to pistol whip and rob?

I had a question for the wonderful mayor of New York City but I couldn't figure out a way to clean it up. I won't say where the candle should have gone while it was still lit but the old boys response was probably better. In retrospect he could have filed charges on her for attempted arson, a lit candle in the middle of the sidewalk in traffic has to break some kind of code.
 
i know this is gonna start something, but i wonder what shot he was using. i asked this cause he hit 4 people with 3 shells. They did say he was 20-30 feet awat from them.
 
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Please note:

The 72 year old store owner did what he felt he had to do, but he is not happy about having had to do it. He's not finding glory in it; he's self-described as sick with remorse; he's not saying anything on the lines of "they had it coming" or "I showed them."

Odds are, he's saying exactly how he feels and what he thinks.

And not to sound cynical, because I do believe him, but the comments he is making would sit much better with a grand jury or a regular jury than would an awful lot of the "we need to stand up to them and teach them a lesson" comments that so many posters like to make.
 
Much later, a woman came by and lit a candle on the sidewalk outside the store for the souls of the two dead robbers. However, the abused clerk came out of the store, and proceeded to kick over the candle. The woman said to him: "Have a heart" However, he is said to have replied to her: " F_ _ _ 'em!!"
Click to expand...

Freakin libs!!!
 
Anyone enamored with the effectiveness of PGO shotguns based on one anecdote should consult Reginald Denny about them. You can do that because Denny is still alive. He's alive because the young man who shot at him with a PGO shotgun in the midst of his televised beating during the Rodney King/LA Riot missed at about 15 feet. I remember the video from the news helicopter at the time.

Don't remember that episode? Lots of people who were around at the time don't seem to recall it. It didn't get aired much after the first hours of the riot. Here's one news report:

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/14/u...seeks-retrial-of-officer-in-king-beating.html

... Investigators were also attempting to identify three other men who can be seen in the television news footage, Mr. Reiner said. They include a man who smashed a large white object over Mr. Denny's head, a man who hit him on the head with a hammer and a man carrying a shotgun who fired once but did not hit Mr. Denny, then drove off on a motorcycle. Mr. Reiner said there were about 10 other victims of violence at the same intersection -- Normandie and Florence Boulevards -- in the first minutes of the rioting. ...
=====================

All in all, anecdotes do not equal data.

I have never said that a PGO shotgun is useless, I have carried one myself on security details when concealment was a primary consideration (after I let someone talk me out of my old High Standard 10A bullpup). If I absolutely needed to, I'd put the birdshead pistol grip and the laser back on the old Winchester 1300 and practice up a bit.

But would I deliberately choose to pick up ANY shotgun I hadn't worked with in that long, much less a PGO? In the midst of a hot robbery, trying to defend my employees who might have been in close proximity to the bad guys? Absolutely not! Running the graduation drill (a 'hostage shot') in Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class with a full- stocked 870 with sights and slugs was bad enough.

Anyone who wants to is free to act differently of course... I just hope I'm not around when it goes down. I'd a lot rather be lucky than good... but you can't practice for 'lucky.' Butchering good guys with a shotgun is NOT where you want to go.

lpl
 
I have shot PG shotguns for at least 20 years, and am well familiar with how they handle and where they hit from zero to 25yds using both slugs and 00 buck. They make for a great close range weapon.
 
Depends on which way the winds blows. If there seems to be a lot of grass roots support for Augusto, they'll quietly let it slide. If people are calling for his head, they'll prosecute and make a big deal about following the letter of the law.
 
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