38Spl Semi-Wads for self defense?

T

twoblink

New member
Well, there might be a chance for poor ol' me to get a CCW in the horrid liberal state of Kalifornia.

Now a Kahr is on my list of guns to carry, but for now, I think my Ruger SP-101 with a grip change, is probably going to be my primary carry weapon.

Having shot 125grn 357Mag Hollowpoints out of it, it basically felt like catching a Randy Johnson fastball... barehanded. As much as I love the 357's, I'm thinking, since I can barely touch paper with them, but can group 2" at 25' with the 38 LRN's, I thought, hmmm maybe a well placed 38 is worth more than a 357 that I miss with.

So... A lot of people have said I should look into a 38spl Semi-wadcutter as another option.

Can anybody tell me the advantages of why (aside from recoil)? I know I lose quite a bit in energy, but then again, I make it up in accuracy and shot placement as well as second shot chances..

I assume the large frontal surface area and relatively non-expanding mass will do a great job dumping energy, and thus it's good for home defense? Or is it just cool that it will cut a clean hole in drywall?

Thanks.
Albert
 
The other question I had was, how much work would it be, to convert my SP101 to a DAO, and loose the protruding hammer?
 
When you carry you should have your Ruger loaded with 357's. The odds are that if you had to use it, it is not going to be from 25 feet, but more like 4 to 9 feet. You don't have to worry about missing and 2 inch groups at that distance. You will be on full alert if your ever in a shooting situation and probably won't even notice the recoil.

If your life is in immediate danger, you don't want to use a 38 over a 357 round because of range experiences which hurt a little bit. Also, do switch your grips, that will help out when you practice at the range. Just remember, when you are carrying, you probably will never ever shoot your weapon. So load it with the 357's.
 
I use the .38 Special +P, 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point in the M38, .38 Special and the M66, .357 Magnum.

I can quickly get back on target for follow-up shots, and the muzzle-blast is not deafening.

You need to practice with what you carry.
If the .357 Mag. ammo is punishing, you won't practice with it often.

The .38 Special will do the job if you do yours.
 
If you are having a problem with "accuracy and shot placement" then what you are realy having a problem with is anticipation of recoil. Regardless of caliber you should be able to shoot just as accurate with a .357MAG as you should with a .38Special. All you have to do is concentrate each time you pull the trigger not to anticipate the recoil. ;)
 
The 38spl is fine for your application. When the NYPD was using the 158gr LRN in 38s they had a 79% one shot stop rate and they were not shooting goats! Many back in the 38spl heyday used 158gr LSWC as carry ammo. Today I carry Fed 125gr Nyclad or Win 125gr Silvertips+P.
 
The 158gr LSWCHP +P in 38spl would be a good choice along with cor-bons 125gr +P.If you really want to use a 357 mag load there are med velocity loads from remington (125gr golden sabres) or tactical lite 125gr from triton,these will give you more power than 38's and they're not as nasty to fire as full power 357mags.
 
I would load four of the .38spl 158+P Lead Semi-Wadcutter-Hollowpoints (LSWC-HP) as the first four shots. Winchester's version if that's all I could find, but the Remington is reputed to be just a wee bit hotter - check around at gun shows, they're available just a bit hard to find.

I'd do most of my practice with those, or something similar. Most .38Spl 158grainers will feel pretty similar even if they're not +P.

The *fifth* round in the gun would be the wildest .357 hairball kaboom monster I could find :). Remington's full-house 125grain monster would be a good one.

That's the gun's way of saying "reload me, fool, I'm dry so ya better have a plan "B" somewheres" :D. I would NEVER practice with those, never even fire 'em. Don't need to. So what if it hurts in a fight where you've cranked off five rounds? You won't flinch because you won't be thinking about it until AFTER you've cranked that monster off :D and you won't need to come back down off of recoil and back on target because gee, the dang thing is DRY.

Your two speedloaders should be full of five more of the .38+P 158 LSWC-HP each. SP101s eat from the same speedloaders that 5-shot S&W J-Frame .38/.357s feed from. If you can find 'em, the Safariland speedloaders where you press the back of the loading inwards to drop the shells are the fastest. They're available for J-frames. You may have to shave the rubber grips just a bit for speedloader clearance; a few minutes with an exacto knife will do, or "polish" the rubber down with a dremel sanding wheel with the grip off of the gun - go SLOW!

I'd also get an Ashley Small Dot Tritium front sight for the SP101 - see also www.ashleyoutdoors.com
 
Tom B.

Where do you get that stopping power figure re NYCPD? That is higher than anyone else has posted re .38 Specials, especially the old lead RN.

Personally, I lean toward the lead +P HP SWC. Plain (non-HP) .38's didn't fare too well in New York, according to Ayoob. They were +P, but not HP's.

I also like the Speer Gold Dot, but it seems to be sized on the wide end of SAAMI specs, and is a tight fit in some chambers. Velocity is often right at 900FPS, even in a snub.

Mind you, I am NOT calling you a liar: I just wonder where you got that info, and how reliable it may be. If verifiable, it would sure shake up traditional notions of what the standard .38 can do...

Lone Star
 
Not to stir the pot, but I too am curious where that figure came from regarding the stopping power of the .38special LRN.

The figures I have* list the LRN at 51% OSS (456 shootings, 231 OSS w/ Federal 158gr LRN).

Also, the LRN has a nasty reputation for horrendous over-penetration, listed at 28" in ballistic gelatin. Due to its profile, weight and mild velocity (755 FPS), this kind of performance is practically guaranteed.

As a comparison, the deepest digging full-power .357magnum, a Remington SWC, reached depths of 27.5 in gelatin... the 9mm 115gr FMJ only 24.5". Over-penetration is definately a liability, particularly with CCW where public areas are involved.

I would whole-heartedly recommend 158gr SWCHP+Ps as other have. It's earned many well deserved accolades over the years as a proven defensive round. At 890 FPS (Winchester), with an average penetration of 14.8" and expansion of .62 caliber, it has earned a solid 78% OSS thus far.


* Street Stoppers, Paladin Press, 1996
 
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For all that I've never been impressed with the penetration of semi-wadcutter, I do advocate practicing with the round with which you can carry comfortably. I wouldn't use unjacketed lead ammo due to the smoke from lubrication obscuring the target. I'd use 38spl if that's what you can practice with.
 
I keep my 640 loaded with 158gr LSWCHP +P also. I don't think vaporized lead/lube is going to produce enough smoke to obscure the target; at least it never has for me. ;)
 
Twoblink, use what your comfortable with.

It's like I always hear on here, a .22lr bullet through a bad guy's eye is better than a .44 magnum bullet that misses entirely.

The .357 can be a thumper with regards to recoil. If the .38 specials make you feel the most confident to make the shot in a life or death situation, use them. If I was the hostage who's life you were trying to save, I'd sure hope you have the best ammo in your gun that you think you can make a shot with.

I would suggest looking at something with a hollow point bullet and try some +P ammo to see if it's something your comfortable with.

Also you might want to try a lighter bullet too. Try a 110gr or 125 grain bullet. There is less recoil with these than with some of the hotter 158 grain.

Good Luck!
 
NYPD had better instructors and probably shot more often in the decades prior to the 1980s. Therefore, their cops were better shooters. Less focus on community policing, I mean less empathy with thugs.

The effectiveness of any load is directly related to marksmanship, something Sanow and Marshall can't incorporate into their statistics.

If I take my four inch model 10 and load it with ball, then shoot some a+sh+le one time and he immediately falls over dead, then hankrearden2000 PD has achieved 100% one-shot-stop stopping power.
 
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One thing I keep hearing is that if you cant control a .357 or a full house .44 Mag , go to a milder load. My advice would be to get yer butt to the range and practice a lot more. If self defence is important enough for you to buy, and carry a handgun, then it should be important enough for you to learn how to use it correctly.
 
Placement is all.
The SWCHP in the 38 is just fine, with a good rep in many places.
I've seen it work and it works swell!

If smoke from lube of lead bullets obscures vision in gunfight, there are probably stick actuator problems.

NSC
 
Lone Star

I got that percentage from a gun mag article. The writer did qualify it by saying "at one point in time". I also read the article that stated 50% but there again no time period was specified. That writer was quoting someone else making a statement. I will try to find the mag article again to give you specifics.
 
Thanks, Tom. I've read a LOT in this field for over 40 years, and have Marshall's and Sanow's stopping power book. Read the Thompson-LaGarde study, etc., and follow up on all the shootings where I can gather data. Talk to local cops, etc.

I'm not ancient; I just started serious handgun research when I was 10-12 years old. And everything I've found suggests that unless one hits the brain or spine, the .38 RN std. lead load is about 50% effective. I don't even use it on small game.

Lone Star

P.S. RN lead load: recommended by Barney Fife and about no one else!
 
Twoblink:
In my no-name 38 subby, I load the Federal 110-Gr "Personal Defense" not the +P load. Federals catalog number is PD38HS3. Hydra-shok 110Gr JHP bullet. Not too hard on the shooter, could be really bad for the shootee.:eek:
 
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