.38Spec bullet weights?

Z

ZVP

New member
This may seem somewhat of an odd question but here goes...
I shoot a Model 36 (No Dash). as I undrstand it was designed for the 158gr bullet.
Why then do they make a 125 gr bullet?
I have read several posts where people prefer to use the lighter bullet and claim it dosen;t recoil as much. However, aren't you trading Ft Lbs of energy using the light bullet or does the higher velocity of the light bullet compensate for the weight?
Seriously, I don't get the light bullet thing.
BPDave
 
Not sure what you're calling "range practice ammo" but most of the "re-manufactured" .38 Special I see at my range and gun shops are 158 gr. lead SWC or RNFP, and 148 gr. wadcutters. Do see some 130 FMJ, though, but it is pricier.

Bob Wright
 
Wow I would love to find 148/158. All I can ever find is 130 fmj. Actually looking into reloading so I can find wadcutters.
 
The cartridges I refer to are from Tennessee Cartridge Company, a local firm. The 158 gr. RNFP seems to be popular with the SASS shooters, reason for their popularity.

Bob Wright
 
Cartridges have a maximum pressure that shouldn't be exceeded.

Larger bullets create more pressure because of their weight and their size (larger bullets reduce volume in the case). Using a smaller bullet you can use more powder while still maintaining the pressure limit.

Knowing this pressure limit we can drive a larger bullet slower, or a lighter bullet faster.

Before hollow points were popular penetration was all that mattered so a 158 grain lead bullet was the standard, now that people carry hollow points the extra velocity attained with the lighter weights create more reliable and violent expantion.

The gold standard for stopping power is the 125jhp .357 magnum. Many other loads try their best to duplicate what this cartridge can do.

Total energy is a calculation that factors both weight and velocity, so the heavier bullet doesn't always give you the most energy.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
A calculator like this can help you determine your energy.

In .38 spl the 158grain bullet did give me the most energy, but in .357 Magnum my 125 grain loads create the most energy.
 
You owe it to yourself to try out some 125 grain bullets if you haven't done so already. Could be kind of a fun outing to take some 158 grain ammo and some 125 grain ammo to the range and compare them yourself.

The light-and-fast verses the heavy-and-slow debate has been around for some time and I haven't seen a clear winner and personally don't know enough to argue in public one side or the other.

I've said this before - I fired a Ruger LCR .357 with 158 grain bullets and I won't do that again - too hard on my hands. The 125 grain .357 ammunition is okay for me. Your mileage may vary.
 
There are several reasons to load a lighter bullet in a given cartridge, but the most common is to attain higher velocity, and thus more reliable expansion, without the need to increase pressure. .38 Special is a relatively low pressure cartridge and, without bumping up to +P pressure, its rather difficult to drive a 158gr bullet fast enough to reliably expand unless you use a rather long barrel.

If you look at the velocities of various standard pressure .38 Special loadings from 4" barrels, you'll see that the 158gr loads usually run in the 700-800fps range, the 125-130gr loads in the 800-900fps range, and the 110gr loadings in the 900-1000fps range. By and large, you need at least 800fps to get most hollowpoint bullets to reliably expand (and even at that velocity it can sometimes be iffy), so most manufacturers choose to load their standard pressure .38 Special HP loads with lighter bullets.

Now, if you step up to a .38 Special +P, you can more easily break the 800fps threshold with a 158gr bullet, but the recoil will also increase as will the wear and tear on the gun (many older revolvers are not rated to fire +P ammunition).
 
The model 36 did come out during a time when heavier bullets were king. I even remember buying 200g LRN's in 38 Spl (not+P) - and have shot them through my own Model 36.

The 158 grainer was pretty much the norm for 38 Special ammunition for many years. But even back in the good o'l days, many exceptions could be found (such as the 200's mentioned above).

With the advent of jacketed handgun ammunition, the need for higher velocities for proper terminal expansion became apparent. There's two ways to increase velocity: 1) Increase pressure; and 2) decrease mass. Since pressure is pretty much capped (safely, and realistically), for each cartridge. The only other option was to decrease the bullet mass.

That was the time (70's - early 80's) when lighter bullet weights caught on in popularity.

Today, we have a choice, basically. Physics dictates that there's a trade-off. Mass vs. Velocity. A heavier bullet is going to penetrate better. Rule #1 of terminal ballistics: you must first make a hole. But it may also over-penetrate. A lighter bullet - traveling faster - is going to more readily and reliably expand - but may not sufficiently penetrate through heavy clothing, etc.

Which is better? The next 40 or 50 posts will answer that - with 40 or 50 different answers. :p
 
Lighter bullets give more velocity

That can be a real issue in shorter barrels.
I think the 158 loads were standard when the .38 spl was introduced.
 
Thats why I reload the .38. Around here all I can find are the lighter bullets and as all most all my .38s are older and seem to do better with the heavier bullet it is reload time.
 
All I know is in these two S&W .38s, my first CCW guns...

attachment.php


158gr reloads just shoot fantastic.

With the 64-2 pictured at 20 yards SA it puts every shot right on the small 'x' of a 5 inch black bull and DA rapid fire, shooting isosceles, at 5 yards every shot in that 4 inch bull (and from the leather to!)

The 640 pictured will do similar except at 20 yards I could get only 3 of the 5 to hit the black shooting DA slowly.

Now you can talk about energy all you want but accuracy trumps that energy.

If the gun shoots dead on and gives tight groups, fast tight groups, then use that load!

And the 640-1 below (shown with my old 640 .38) does it to!

attachment.php


And thus I'm sold on the 158gr standard loads.

Deaf
 
I shoot a Model 36 (No Dash). as I undrstand it was designed for the 158gr bullet.
Why then do they make a 125 gr bullet?
Click to expand...

Quite simply, because the Model 36 isn't the only .38 caliber gun out there, and short range self defense isn't the only kind of shooting done, even with the .38 Special.

The 158gr bullet was the standard weight when the .38 Special was introduced in 1902, and is still the standard weight for that cartridge. Bullets are judged to be either lighter or heavier than the standard weight for each caliber or cartridge.

In .38 cal, you can find bullets ranging from 110gr to 200gr as fairly common, and even bullets lighter of heavier than those, if you really look (and pay).
 
Ya'll know why the 158 gr. is the "standard" bullet weight for .38 Special? Well, I'm a-going to tell ya.

The .38 Special evolved from the .38 Long Colt (the .38 Colt Army). The original .38 Colt Navy had a bullet running about .378" in diameter. When the .38 Long Colt was introduced, it had a hollow based bullet running 150 grains in weight. The hollow base was to compensate for use in the older guns with larger bores. When the .38 Special was introduced, the use in large bores was not comtemplated, so the bullet used a flat base, the 8 grains being the "plug" filling the former hollow base.

Now you know.

Bob Wright
 
Different bullet weights can also be helpful in getting fixed sight guns to shoot to point of aim. As a general rule, heavier bullets will tend to shoot higher than lighter bullet weights. So if your gun is shooting a bit low with 125's, try a load using 158's. Conversely, if you are shooting high with 158's, try 125's or 110's.

For the record, the S&W 37 I inherited (1981 production) likes 125's better than 158's. My hand also likes the lighter bullets in that gun!
 
"Never heard that before. Seems credible enough though."

The whole story of the .38 Long Colt is kind of convoluted.

As originally introduced in 1874-75 for the Colt New Line, New House, and New Police revolvers, the .38 Long Centerfire, as it was known then, had a heeled bullet.

That's basically the cartridge that the Navy adopted.

When the Army adopted the round as the official military round, they modified it to take the inside lubricated bullet.

As originally loaded by the military, the .38 Army, or Long Colt as that iteration became known, had a flat-base bullet. It wasn't until later a few years later, and more specifically commercially, that the hollow-base bullet was adopted to allow the round to be used in guns chambered for the older heeled bullet.

While the older .38 Long Centerfire and the later .38 Long Colt are not technically the same cartridge (some Long Colt iterations have cases that are slightly longer) they are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.

Here's a good write up on the subject:

http://www.oldammo.com/august04.htm
 
Thanks guys! A bunch of worthwhile knowlege and history!
I know what you ment by tayloring bullet weights to different fixed sight revolvers. My Ruger Vaquero shoots dead center with Remington Factory 158gr Lead bullets! Best of all ammo for it. I do load the Remington +P HP's for trail loads as they are second most accurate and devistatingly powerfull!
My Nodel 36 fires centered with the 158gr's but not at 25 yards. It is sighted closer. My Model 10 seems to shoot the 168's well but I am still experimenting with it, since it's my latest revolver purchase.
Ha-Ha it's an honor to be as confused about this as Elmer Keith!!! LOL!
The 130 gr Range ammo hasn't shown me any advantage of accuracy or power.
Most all my reloads are 158 gr. Lead.
Thanks for trying to explain it to a beginner!
ZVP
 
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