38 Super Pro's & Con's

W

WillyBow8

Inactive
I did a search for info on 38 Supers but couldn't come up with exactly the answers I needed. I'm thinking of moving into this caliber (gun purchase and reloading) but would like to know the answers to these questions before I make the move:

1. Do you use the same 38 brass as you do for 38 Special?
2. What are the pitfalls, if any, of reloading for this caliber?
3. Can any of my RCBS 38 Special dies be used for reloading or do I have to completely retool?
4. General pro's and con's from experienced users.

Thanks
Bill
 
DITTO

The only drawback is that ammo is hard to find. You can't just go to Walmart and get some plinking rounds. Since you plan on reloading no big deal. Basically it's a 9mm Luger magnum, except it won't tear your arm off like most magnum's.
 
The .38 Super is a completely different animal than the .38 Special is. .38 Super is a semi-automatic cartridge with a semi-rimmed, tapered case 23mm in length while the .38 Special is a revolver cartridge with a rimmed, straight-walled case 29mm in length. .38 Super will drive a 130grn .355 diameter bullet at 1200-1300fps from a 5" semi-automatic barrel while .38 Special will drive the same weight bullet at 800-900fps in standard pressure loadings and 900-1000fps in +P loadings from a 4" revolver barrel.

.38 Super is comparable in ballistics to a hot-loaded 9mm +P or +P+ or a .357 Sig. Unlike the latter two cartridges, however, the .38 Super's overall length requires a larger frame gun like those of a .45 ACP or 10mm Auto. The .38 Super is most commonly encountered in a 1911-type platform and, in single-stack magazines, will usually have a magazine capacity of 8-10 rounds.

The .38 Super was developed by Colt in the 1920's by simply loading the older .38 ACP cartridge to higher pressure. The cartridge was introduced in the Government Model semi-automatic pistol (1911) in response to the needs of law enforcement for a more powerful handgun that could reliably penetrate the car bodies of the day. Similar circumstances surrounded the introduction of the .357 Magnum cartridge by S&W but it ultimately became much more popular than the .38 Super due to its ability to accept .38 Special ammunition as a subload, greater power, and chambering in revolvers rather than semi-automatics (revolvers remained the favored arm of police until the 1980's and early 1990's).

The .38 Super did enjoy a resurgence in popularity among competitors in the action-oriented shooting sports. This was because it could more easily make major power factor than the 9mm but offered less recoil and higher magazine capacity than most of the larger calibers like .45 ACP and 10mm Auto.

As a self-defense cartridge, the .38 Super is excellent though ammunition selection and availability are much more limited than more mainstream cartridges like 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .45 ACP, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum.
 
1-no
2-no
3-no
4- it's great, it has been doing what the .357Sig does for a long time and is generally more accurate.
 
For decades after its inception, this round was known form its inaccuracy. The small semi-rim did not provide adequate headspacing. 25 years ago Sig offered the .38 Super in its P220 and solved accuracy issues by chambering barrels so that the case headspaced on its mouth and not the pesky rim. .45 acp, 9mm l., .40 S&W, and others also use the case mouth for headspacing.

So, for most of its life in the 1911 the .38 super was a problem child because of method of Hspacing. Irv stone of Bar-sto Barrels was the first to fix this situation by selling drop-in barrels chambered correctly.

When loaded hot, this round frequently blew out the bottom rear of the case because "too much" of the back of the case was unsupported in a conventional 1911 style barrel. Also the rim contributed to feeding failures of the same type seen sometimes in .32acp auto's(same rim).

I enjoyed the ones that I had but must emphasize that there are other choices that are less finicky.

Nogo
 
The Super has always been an accurate cartridge. Headspacing it on the case mouth simply made it more accurate.
Rimlock is unheard of in .38 Super.
 
.38 Super is a straight-sided case. Cases do not blow out if loaded to SAAMI specs in a within-spec chamber. In the 1990s, competition shooters were trying to drive 115gr bullets at 1600fps, and that's not what the Super was designed to do. In a single-stack 1911, it's about the best feeding round you'll find. Components are readily available for handloaders, but factory ammo is often hard to find.
 
The Super is a great cartridge within it's limits. In my opinion, reloading with premium 9mm hollowpoints will result in more reliable expansion than a conventional 9mm+P.

However, you do have to understand that you're shooting a bullet slightly more than half the weight of a 230 grain .45 slug in a platform fully capable of shooting the .45's (assuming it's a 1911). Given the single stack mag, you'll only gain 2-3 rounds over a .45.

If you want to read something really interesting, check out Dane Burns' website and his info on the 9x23. It's more like what the Super should be.

FWIW, if you want to solve any potential problems with the semi-rim, you can use Starline SuperComp brass, or you can trim 9x23 brass to length, if needed, and run it through a .38 Super sizing die. Just be aware that using the resized 9x23 brass will result in a smaller case capacity and higher pressures, and you should work up loads accordingly.
 
Originally posted by dwwhite
FWIW, if you want to solve any potential problems with the semi-rim, you can use Starline SuperComp brass, or you can trim 9x23 brass to length, if needed, and run it through a .38 Super sizing die. Just be aware that using the resized 9x23 brass will result in a smaller case capacity and higher pressures, and you should work up loads accordingly.
Click to expand...

A disclaimer needs to be added to this: you should only use .38 Super Comp or 9x23 brass in a barrel that headspaces on the case mouth. If you have an older barrel that headspaces on the rim, these types of brass may not headspace properly.

With regards to rimlock, it's only really a problem when the ammo is loaded to a shorter OAL. This is most commonly encountered in .32 ACP when JHP bullets, which usually weight only 60grn and have a shorter OAL than the standard 71grn or 73grn FMJ, are loaded into a magazine designed for the longer FMJ rounds. Longer rounds simply don't have enough space to move around in the magazine for rimlock to occur. So long as 125grn or heavier bullets are used in the .38 Super, I doubt rimlock would be an issue.

Originally posted by RickB
.38 Super is a straight-sided case.
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Actually, the .38 Super is a slightly tapered case like the 9mm. While not a practice I recommend, some people have reported being able to fire .38 Super ammunition in .357 Magnum revolvers with fairly loose chambers while others report not being able to fit a .38 Super cartridge into the chamber due to the taper. Just out of curiosity, I tried some empty .38 Super cases in both of my .357 Magnum revolvers (a S&W M28 and a S&W M66) and they would not go all the way into the chambers.
 
In the 1950's and 60's James Clark the famous 1911 pistolsmith attempted to accurize Colt 1911 Supers and failed to achieve any measure of target accuracy because of the rim/headspacing factor.

Case blowouts were associated with barrel throating techniques that reduced support at case rear. Hot loading made the problem worse.
 
In the 1950's and 60's James Clark the famous 1911 pistolsmith attempted to accurize Colt 1911 Supers and failed to achieve any measure of target accuracy because of the rim/headspacing factor.
Click to expand...
Someone figured out how to make them accurate. I had Claudio Salasa build one for me about seven years ago that would shoot under an inch (five shot groups) all day long at twenty five yards and never fail to feed or fire. I've seen a LOT of them that were very, very accurate.
 
One of the other gunsmiths of the 1950s figured it out.
He bored out the chamber, force fitted a bushing, and chambered it to headspace on the case mouth. His recommended loads were light, comparable to .38 Special wadcutters, and accuracy as good. He commented that .38 Super brass was more expensive than Specials and stiffer to resize. But that it would last a long time and the then-new carbide dies would ease the loading process.


The old "parallel ruler" twin link .38 ACPs had a good reputation for accuracy, particularly the military and sporting models with 6" barrels. They surely had semirim chambers. It would be interesting if somebody had one in good shooting condition to test by modern standards of accuracy.
 
.38 Super is a straight-sided case.

Actually, the .38 Super is a slightly tapered case like the 9mm.
Click to expand...

The specs for the Super are .384" diameter at the case mouth, and the same dimension just forward of the extractor groove. The 9x19 and 9x23 are tapered.
 
Heres a question I always had, is a 9x23mm the metric equivalent of 38 super?
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Except for a slight taper in the 9x23 yes.

Some guns of each caliber will interchange ammunition depending on chamber tolerance (not really recommended due to eh pressure differences).

If you manage to chamber a 9x23 into an old .38 ACP very band things may happen.

With a ramped barrel .38 Super can really be made to perform.

Some places give Nonte credit for the headspacing fix for the .38 Super, and reamers are even marked "38 Super (Nonte)" (I have one marked that way).

The semi-rim had to catch on the barrel hood to headspace, and while factory ammo might sometimes, there was often enough tolerance to let the semi rim slide below the tiny shelf on the barrel hood and the cartridge ended up cocked in the chamber.
 
Heres a question I always had, is a 9x23mm the metric equivalent of 38 super?
Click to expand...

Dimensionally, there are several different 9x23 cartridges but most of them aren't interchangeable. The least powerful and lowest pressure of these is the old .38 ACP, next we have the 9mm Largo/Bergmann-Bayard cartridge which was popular in Spain, after that we have the .38 Super Auto, and finally the most powerful (and highest pressure) is the 9x23 Winchester. While any one of these cartridges may possibly chamber and fire in a gun chambered for another, it isn't safe to do because of differences in headspacing and pressure.
 
.38 super

RICKB
I used to hunt with a colt .38 super, back in 1970, and yes, blowouts are very
common when you get to the ragged edge of loading it. The lower back edge of the cartridge is not supported there, and will blow out if the loads are hot.
I have had this happen to me, and it'a not a pleasant experience. Just my
two cents worth from alot of experience with .38 supers.
 
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