38 SPL 125 Gr Xtreme with Titegroup

T

TazensteinGP100

Inactive
I have 1000 125 gr 38 bullets, with Cannelure. I also have Titegroup powder.

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with these components together? I want to load them in 38 Special.

I'm getting some conflicting load data. If I run a high end 125 gr fp LEAD bullet- I am looking at about 3.8 grains.

I have also heard from Xtreme that you can use Speer's manual for TMJ for their plated bullets. Whats confusing about that is they say 4.4 for the high range but note "do not reduce."

I will be shooting these out of a Ruger GP100. My goal is to get a nice target/plinking load.

So it seems like the happy zone is between 3.8 and 4.4. I was hoping for some real life results. Thanks.
 
I load 'em. Well, except I use the non-cannelure variety (coincidentally, I just ordered 1000 more of them this morning). Taper crimp; 1.445" OAL; WSP (and sometimes CCI 500) primers; Starline or Winchester brass.

My pet load is 4.6 grains. Runs 925 f/s through a 4" bbl Smith model 67.
I have loaded them as high as 5.0 grains; which is likely a +P loading at 1022 f/s through the same gun.

I find the 5.0 to be snappier than I was going for. 4.6 is the pet load; as it shoots nice n straight, consistent, and clean.

The DNR in the Speer manual is for concern of a stuck bullet. Unless you're shooting them through a lightweight snubby, I see no reason to attempt to go below the 4.4 grains anyway.
 
Thanks Nick. It's good to hear from someone who has already waded into these waters.

Based on your numbers it sounds like 3.8 could very easily lead to a bullet stuck in the barrel. Have you found that the Speer Manual's data for TMJ's is pretty transferable for xtreme bullets?

Based on the numbers I'm looking at and the numbers you gave me- these particular xtreme bullets are closer to Jacketed data than lead data.
 
I would recommend you follow the data from Hodgdon ....over the speer data / but looking at Hodgdon manual, I wouldn't go below 4.4 gr either.
 
Hi Jim,

Does the Hogdon manual have load data for copper plated bullets? I wasn't aware they had manuals... but sure enough I see them on Amazon.
 
I have found that 3.2 Titegroup under my home cast 125 grain, sized .358, powder coated bullets is very accurate in my K38...Winchester cases, Federal magnum primers (the magnums were all that were available at the time). It is a powder-puff load, minimum recoil for my double-action shooting.

I prefer 2.8 of Bullseye, but bought an 8 pound container of Titegroup when I could not find Bullseye last Spring and worked-up the Titegroup load. The titegroup load turned out to be more accurate than my Bullseye loading.
 
TazensteinGP100 said:
Hi Jim,



Does the Hogdon manual have load data for copper plated bullets? I wasn't aware they had manuals... but sure enough I see them on Amazon.
Click to expand...



I've noticed that the Hodgdon jacketed data on their website is pretty conservative compared to data in my Hornady manual. Using the Hodgdon jacketed data gives me good results for my plated bullet reloads.
 
May we have the barrel length of your GP100?

Based on your numbers it sounds like 3.8 could very easily lead to a bullet stuck in the barrel.
Click to expand...

The potential is there. The longer the barrel, the more likely. You can work down to it - making sure you see an impact of some sort downrange. But again, 3.8 would be pretty soft anyway - not sure what application it would serve.

Have you found that the Speer Manual's data for TMJ's is pretty transferable for xtreme bullets?
Click to expand...

Well, not sure about "transferable," as that can mean different things. I have used their data on numerous occasions as a starting reference point; and it has served me well. My chronograph takes it from there. TMJ's are a thick plating - considerably thicker than X-treme's (or others, Berry's, Rainier, etc.). So there's a bit of an apples-n-oranges kinda thing. But you're doing well using jacketed (or TMJ) data as your starting point. Using low-end lead data for plated bullets with a revolver is a recipe for a stuck bullet.

Based on the numbers I'm looking at and the numbers you gave me- these particular xtreme bullets are closer to Jacketed data than lead data.
Click to expand...

Yes. Exactly. And hence, strong evidence to stick with jacketed load data.
 
A TMJ is a jacketed bullet according to Speer. Anyway, you can forget the cannelure altogether and just load to the Max OAL with no fuss.
3.8 grains of Titegroup is below minimum for a jacketed 125. 3.8 grains of Titegroup is the max load for a cast 125. Pressures are really close between the proper 4.3 grains jacketed start load and the 3.8 though. Out of a 7.7" barrel. It's not going to stick in a shorter barrel.
 
Off Topic

A TMJ is a jacketed bullet according to Speer.
Click to expand...

From Speer #14, pg 732: "We swage a hardened lead core and then form a jacket one molecule at a time through chemical electro-plating."

That is the very definition of the plating process. TMJ's are plated. So are Gold Dot's.

BUT . . . it's really neither here nor there in the context of this thread. It is a thick plating that for most any intent and purpose, can be viewed as jacketed.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming :p . . .
 
Yes, the Hodgdon online manual has some loads for plated bullets, specifically Berry's, in some calibers. You will have to check the online manual to see what is there for .38's In general, if you use a plated bullet the Hodgdon manual suggests you use lead data, not jacketed data / look at their education Tab in the online manual...you will find a lot of good info in tips, etc..

Check with bullet mfg for velocity recommendations ....in general, I would not use plated bullets in higher end max loads, especially in magnum calibers / keep the loads for thinner plated bullets like Xtreme or Rainier closer to lead bullet data, in my view /..look at Berry load data to compare but Berry has a more uniform and thicker plating than Rainier or Xtreme - so it's not a direct comparison ...

I have seen plating on Xtreme & Rainier fracture ...at higher velocities / and blow back on shooter in .44mag especially ....at higher end velocities ( a little shrapnel in arms and his face )...not serious, thankfully, but don't over-crimp and keep velocity down.

You need to do a little more research when using plated bullets ...vs more typical jacketed bullets like Montana Gold, Speer, etc / search on line & printed manuals. Be suspicious of real old manuals, sometimes powders are reformulated and names do not change, some powder companies are sold ( 700 X is just one powder that has been thru a lot of different hands ...vs when it was made and distributed by DuPont in the 80's....)....and I believe all Winchester and IMR powders, for last several years, are now formulated & distributed by Hodgdon ....but still say Winchester...and IMR...at least in big print..

Be patient -- do the research...consider your options...be conservative ( and don't be an amateur chemist and go below published minimums or exceed published maximums...

Have fun with this part of the gun hobby.../ lots of guys on this forum have been reloading for 40 or 50 years, personally, I would Reload even if the savings were a push....and in my late 60's now I still load and shoot 10 - 12 boxes a week ( mostly 9mm ...but still 80 boxes a year of .357 mag too.../ all Montana Gold....although I have tested some Xtreme, Rainier & Berrys ....and a buddy and I will test a new bullet from Rocky Mountain in a few weeks...)...but I won't switch my loads from Montana Gold...it would take a lot for me to switch...:D
 
Last edited:
As a general rule for plated bullets, I'll start at mid range lead loads and end at mid range jacketed loads of a given bullet weight. It seems like I find my best loads usually in the lower end of recommended jacketed data. This is with Extreme bullets, never used other brands. I've also found this method works equally well with the HiTec coated bullets as well.
 
As a general rule for plated bullets, I'll start at mid range lead loads and end at mid range jacketed loads
Click to expand...

Perhaps a little over-simplified, but in general, a pretty good approach.

Exceptions exist, IMO . . . 38 Special and 45 ACP are of little concern on the high end. If you're sticking with published (jacketed) data, you probably won't over-drive a plated bullet. These chamberings are low pressure, and just not that hard on projectiles.

With 357/44 Magnum, even a "mid range jacketed load" may over-drive a plated bullet.

That said, I still agree that it's a pretty good way to basically approach loading plated bullets.

Here's how I see it: On the low end, a plated bullet behaves like a jacketed bullet (where barrel friction and its resulting stuck bullet is a concern); and on the high end, it behaves like a lead bullet (where bullet over-drive and integrity is a concern) . . . Which is, of course, just the exact opposite of the ideal. It's about keeping it in the middle ground.
 
Rainier bullets state that they recommend using jacketed bullet data for reloading their bullets. I don;t know whether any other plated bullet manufacturers do the same.
 
I shoot the very same 38 spl bullet in my GP100's and was using titegroup as well loading them in the middle to upper range with good results ...................now using CFE pistol , and loading them +p , really love 'em...............
 
Last edited:
I agree with Nick CS, that's how I treat plated bullets.

Here's how I see it: On the low end, a plated bullet behaves like a jacketed bullet (where barrel friction and its resulting stuck bullet is a concern); and on the high end, it behaves like a lead bullet (where bullet over-drive and integrity is a concern) . . . Which is, of course, just the exact opposite of the ideal. It's about keeping it in the middle ground.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top