38 special
- Thread starter smothron5
- Start date
PatientWolf
New member
Incorrect forum section, but...
I assume you meant to post in the revolver section, but...
.38 special should fine in any revolver chambered for .38 special, .38+P, or .357 magnum.
.38+P should only be shot from revolvers chambered for .38+P or .357 magnum.
Since you posted in the semi-automatic forum, I am going to just caution that .38 Super is a completely different cartridge for guns chambered for .38 Super.
I assume you meant to post in the revolver section, but...
.38 special should fine in any revolver chambered for .38 special, .38+P, or .357 magnum.
.38+P should only be shot from revolvers chambered for .38+P or .357 magnum.
Since you posted in the semi-automatic forum, I am going to just caution that .38 Super is a completely different cartridge for guns chambered for .38 Super.
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mxsailor803
New member
+1 ^. If you have any doubts on what your weapon can shoot, contact the manufacture for customer support.
I’m pretty sure your question has been answered by the above posts.
Still, the shooting world is kind of goofy because a *lot* of guns have been made for a lot of years without any international standards or coordination between countries or anything.
Because of that when somebody says “.38” I naturally assume the mean the “standard” cop on the beat revolver…the kind carried by every detective in every old black and white movie mystery. But then I say “BUT WAIT-what if they are talking about the “38 S&W” or the “38-40 Winchester” or as PatientWolf mentioned the “38 Super”.
Sigh.
The firearms world is just goofy. Even if you’re never ever going to reload, a good reloading manual (like one from Speer) can really answer a lot of these questions. Or the mammoth “Cartridges of the World” but that’s a really heavy book.
http://www.amazon.com/Reloading-Man...334804&sr=1-1&keywords=speer+reloading+manual
http://www.amazon.com/Cartridges-Wo...&sr=1-2&keywords=cartridges+of+the+world+2014
Still, the shooting world is kind of goofy because a *lot* of guns have been made for a lot of years without any international standards or coordination between countries or anything.
Because of that when somebody says “.38” I naturally assume the mean the “standard” cop on the beat revolver…the kind carried by every detective in every old black and white movie mystery. But then I say “BUT WAIT-what if they are talking about the “38 S&W” or the “38-40 Winchester” or as PatientWolf mentioned the “38 Super”.
Sigh.
The firearms world is just goofy. Even if you’re never ever going to reload, a good reloading manual (like one from Speer) can really answer a lot of these questions. Or the mammoth “Cartridges of the World” but that’s a really heavy book.
http://www.amazon.com/Reloading-Man...334804&sr=1-1&keywords=speer+reloading+manual
http://www.amazon.com/Cartridges-Wo...&sr=1-2&keywords=cartridges+of+the+world+2014
I would add there are numerous "38s" and you need to clarify exactly which one you mean. In America when someones says "38" they USUALLY mean the 38 Special
If you mean the 38 Special then yes, it can be fired in any 38 Special or 357 Magnum revolver. If you shoot 38s in a 357 be sure to clean the chambers as carbon will build up over time and can prevent 357 ammo from being loaded.
On the +P, there is great debate. My position after much testing and research is that +P is safe in any quality made gun chambered for the 38 Special cartridge. It is NOT loaded to unsafe pressures. I have shot thousands of rounds of +P and +P+ through guns not listed as "approved for +P" without effect. You do what you want, but I have determined that +P can be used in any decent gun.
If you mean the 38 Special then yes, it can be fired in any 38 Special or 357 Magnum revolver. If you shoot 38s in a 357 be sure to clean the chambers as carbon will build up over time and can prevent 357 ammo from being loaded.
On the +P, there is great debate. My position after much testing and research is that +P is safe in any quality made gun chambered for the 38 Special cartridge. It is NOT loaded to unsafe pressures. I have shot thousands of rounds of +P and +P+ through guns not listed as "approved for +P" without effect. You do what you want, but I have determined that +P can be used in any decent gun.
".38+P should only be shot from revolvers chambered for .38+P or .357 magnum. "
Just to clarify, there is no such thing as a revolver "chambered for" .38 Special +P; any revolver chambered for .38 Special will accept the +P loading. But that loading is higher pressure than the "standard" loading, so it may not be wise to fire .38 Special +P in older or weaker revolvers.
Jim
Just to clarify, there is no such thing as a revolver "chambered for" .38 Special +P; any revolver chambered for .38 Special will accept the +P loading. But that loading is higher pressure than the "standard" loading, so it may not be wise to fire .38 Special +P in older or weaker revolvers.
Jim
precision_shooter
New member
There is no difference of the chamber for .38spl and .38spl +P, but there are some revolvers with the chambering stamped on the barrel as .38 Special +P or .38 S & W special +P...
My well used 1942 M&P through which I ran 500 Remington 125 JHP +Ps and 600 of my own 125JHP (1125 FPS) +P+s one weekend to see if anything would happen. It didn't. I knew it wouldn't. They didn't make +P higher pressure, they lowered the pressure on the "standard load." It's a 125 at 925 FPS for crying out loud! That's a wimp load in my book.
But this discussion never ends...
But this discussion never ends...
I'm assuming that by "38" you mean .38 Spl. And by ".357" you mean .357 S&W Magnum.
That said, any .357 Mag revolver will be able to safely shoot any nominally safe .38 Spl round, including +p. Any revolver rated for +p will be able to safely shoot standard or +p ammo.
It gets a bit tricky from this point on.
Way back when, before .357 Mag came on the scene, S&W made a heavy, "N" frame .38 Spl revolver. It was chambered for a .38 Spl round called the .38-.44, meaning it was a .38 Spl round intended for a heavy revolver normally chambered in .44 Spl. That .38-.44 was, in fact, a .38 Spl loaded to its actual potential. Conventional .38 Spl is usually loaded very light with respect to case capacity, with most pistol powders the case is mostly empty. Not so with the .38-.44. That load was roughly equivalent to the current .357 Mag loads -- much hotter and higher pressure than conventional .38 Spls. The problem was that those .38-44 rounds would chamber just fine in lighter revolvers intended for conventional .38 Spls. So, of course, some of the hot loads found they way into the wrong revolvers. Bad Results. The answer to that was to lengthen the case and chambers by a tenth (plus or minus) and the new hot rounds wouldn't chamber in conventional .38 revolvers. And thus, the .357 Magnum was born.
Anyway, another area is that metallurgy and performance improved over time. It turns out that old-old .38 Spl revolvers really can't be pushed harder than plain-ol' .38 Spl. However, there are other, newer-old .38 Spl revolvers that were built with modern metallurgy and actually are safe to use with +p ammo, even though they aren't marked as such. The thing is, back then a lot of "service" ammo was loaded to what we would consider to be +p levels, and the revolvers of the day were intended to safely fire them. However, the convention of marking such revolvers and ammo as "+p" didn't exist at the time. So, the ammo and the revolver were marked just ".38 Spl", but actually were what we'd consider "+p" in this day and age. My wife's S&W 15-2 (late '50s manufacture) is an example of this. It isn't marked "+p", but it actually is "+p" safe. I forget the exact cut-off date, but for S&W it was sometime in the early '50s IIRC. You have to do a serial number search to definitely ascertain if it is or is not safe, in other words.
HTH
That said, any .357 Mag revolver will be able to safely shoot any nominally safe .38 Spl round, including +p. Any revolver rated for +p will be able to safely shoot standard or +p ammo.
It gets a bit tricky from this point on.
Way back when, before .357 Mag came on the scene, S&W made a heavy, "N" frame .38 Spl revolver. It was chambered for a .38 Spl round called the .38-.44, meaning it was a .38 Spl round intended for a heavy revolver normally chambered in .44 Spl. That .38-.44 was, in fact, a .38 Spl loaded to its actual potential. Conventional .38 Spl is usually loaded very light with respect to case capacity, with most pistol powders the case is mostly empty. Not so with the .38-.44. That load was roughly equivalent to the current .357 Mag loads -- much hotter and higher pressure than conventional .38 Spls. The problem was that those .38-44 rounds would chamber just fine in lighter revolvers intended for conventional .38 Spls. So, of course, some of the hot loads found they way into the wrong revolvers. Bad Results. The answer to that was to lengthen the case and chambers by a tenth (plus or minus) and the new hot rounds wouldn't chamber in conventional .38 revolvers. And thus, the .357 Magnum was born.
Anyway, another area is that metallurgy and performance improved over time. It turns out that old-old .38 Spl revolvers really can't be pushed harder than plain-ol' .38 Spl. However, there are other, newer-old .38 Spl revolvers that were built with modern metallurgy and actually are safe to use with +p ammo, even though they aren't marked as such. The thing is, back then a lot of "service" ammo was loaded to what we would consider to be +p levels, and the revolvers of the day were intended to safely fire them. However, the convention of marking such revolvers and ammo as "+p" didn't exist at the time. So, the ammo and the revolver were marked just ".38 Spl", but actually were what we'd consider "+p" in this day and age. My wife's S&W 15-2 (late '50s manufacture) is an example of this. It isn't marked "+p", but it actually is "+p" safe. I forget the exact cut-off date, but for S&W it was sometime in the early '50s IIRC. You have to do a serial number search to definitely ascertain if it is or is not safe, in other words.
HTH
Mike Irwin
Staff
And I know a gentleman who shot a USN-marked WW II Hand Ejector to uselessness with a steady diet of +P ammo.
There's a good reason why manufacturers like Smith & Wesson advise that many of its .38 Special handguns, including J and K frames made before model markings, not be fired with +P ammunition.
SAAMI adopted a new, lower, pressure standard for a good reason -- more precise chamber pressure measurements allowed by pizoelectric technology.
The old pressure standards for .38 Special and .38 Special +P were pressure estimates based on copper units of pressure. And as everyone hopefully knows, CUP does not translate to PSI well.
The .38 Special cartridge and its guns were born in the black powder era. The cartridge moved on to smokeless powder technology long before the steel technology caught up.
The last thing I'd be willing to do would be to put a +P into a Model 1899 or Model 1902 Hand Ejector.
There's a good reason why manufacturers like Smith & Wesson advise that many of its .38 Special handguns, including J and K frames made before model markings, not be fired with +P ammunition.
SAAMI adopted a new, lower, pressure standard for a good reason -- more precise chamber pressure measurements allowed by pizoelectric technology.
The old pressure standards for .38 Special and .38 Special +P were pressure estimates based on copper units of pressure. And as everyone hopefully knows, CUP does not translate to PSI well.
The .38 Special cartridge and its guns were born in the black powder era. The cartridge moved on to smokeless powder technology long before the steel technology caught up.
The last thing I'd be willing to do would be to put a +P into a Model 1899 or Model 1902 Hand Ejector.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"My wife's S&W 15-2 (late '50s manufacture)"
The 15-2 was introduced in late 1961/early 1962, IIRC.
The 15-2 was introduced in late 1961/early 1962, IIRC.
I don't buy it. Any K frame that falls apart with +P (18,000-20,500 PSI) has other issues. Factory +P will not damage a good quality revolver. That gun would have failed regardless of ammo used.
The original pressure limit for the 38 Special was 23,500 PSI (CORRECTION, I MEANT 21,500). Every S&W and Colt built from 1899 until the present was designed with 23,500 PSI in mind. Ammo was loaded to that pressure. In 1972 SAAMI lowered the max to 20,500 PSI for reasons never made public. Now +P is 18,000-20,500 depending on manufacturer. Meaning it is no higher pressure than what the regular ammo was for 73 years.
When I shoot +P the cases are sooted. This indicates a LOW PRESSURE condition. They fall from the chambers without using the ejector. They are weak target loads. The notion that +P is any sort of high performance load is the greatest marketing myth in the history of Madison Avenue.
Believe the myth. Many do I can't change their minds.
The original pressure limit for the 38 Special was 23,500 PSI (CORRECTION, I MEANT 21,500). Every S&W and Colt built from 1899 until the present was designed with 23,500 PSI in mind. Ammo was loaded to that pressure. In 1972 SAAMI lowered the max to 20,500 PSI for reasons never made public. Now +P is 18,000-20,500 depending on manufacturer. Meaning it is no higher pressure than what the regular ammo was for 73 years.
When I shoot +P the cases are sooted. This indicates a LOW PRESSURE condition. They fall from the chambers without using the ejector. They are weak target loads. The notion that +P is any sort of high performance load is the greatest marketing myth in the history of Madison Avenue.
Believe the myth. Many do I can't change their minds.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Provide the source for that figure.
I have NEVER seen anyone (other than you, just now) throw that figure out for original loadings.
As for the USN gun, there were NO issues with it before he started the steady diet of +P ammo.
I have NEVER seen anyone (other than you, just now) throw that figure out for original loadings.
As for the USN gun, there were NO issues with it before he started the steady diet of +P ammo.
I can't do it. I have known the 21.500 figure since before 1972 but when SAAMI reduced it all printed materials ceased referencing the earlier limits. I would have saved some of my old documentation had a I thought about it at the time but I didn't realize I would need it later.
You'll just have to call me a liar until something turns up.
You'll just have to call me a liar until something turns up.
I poked around a bit and didn't find what I really wanted but I did turn up a couple interesting items. You said nobody but me mentions the "old SAAMI" specs above 18,500.
On THR 8/21/12 by member rcmodel:
As of 1975, .38 Spl standard pressure was 18,900 CUP, +P was 22,400 CUP.
As of 1998 it was 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI.
As of today it is 17,000 PSI & 18,500 PSI.
(Not positive but would 22,400 CUP be around 21,000 PSI?)
Also this:
S&W Forum, 11/14/10 ddixie884 wrote:
+P used to be 22,000psi, it was dropped to 18,500, but was raised back to 20,000 a few years ago. I don't remember where I got this info, but have been studying up on +P lately on the net. The author had discovered the discrepency, and called Speer. They said current +P is 20,000psi.
Appears I am not alone.
Look what was being sold in 1970 before +P was devised and the lawyers took over. Doesn't say whether CUP or PSI but if CUP still pretty high. If PSI then insane.
(Posted on the S&W Forum)
There is a two-part article (July & September 1970 editions) of HANDLOADER magazine regarding .38 Special pressures, both factory loads and handloaded duplications. Pressure measurements were taken at the Super Vel laboratory. Articles are both extensive. Hottest factory loads were the 110 grain Norma JHP (27,250) and the Speer-DWM 140 grain JHP (24,756). The 110 grain Super Vel JHP, very popular with law enforcement personnel of that era, came in at 19,000. Super Vel velocity was about 10% slower than the Norma load.
On THR 8/21/12 by member rcmodel:
As of 1975, .38 Spl standard pressure was 18,900 CUP, +P was 22,400 CUP.
As of 1998 it was 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI.
As of today it is 17,000 PSI & 18,500 PSI.
(Not positive but would 22,400 CUP be around 21,000 PSI?)
Also this:
S&W Forum, 11/14/10 ddixie884 wrote:
+P used to be 22,000psi, it was dropped to 18,500, but was raised back to 20,000 a few years ago. I don't remember where I got this info, but have been studying up on +P lately on the net. The author had discovered the discrepency, and called Speer. They said current +P is 20,000psi.
Appears I am not alone.
Look what was being sold in 1970 before +P was devised and the lawyers took over. Doesn't say whether CUP or PSI but if CUP still pretty high. If PSI then insane.
(Posted on the S&W Forum)
There is a two-part article (July & September 1970 editions) of HANDLOADER magazine regarding .38 Special pressures, both factory loads and handloaded duplications. Pressure measurements were taken at the Super Vel laboratory. Articles are both extensive. Hottest factory loads were the 110 grain Norma JHP (27,250) and the Speer-DWM 140 grain JHP (24,756). The 110 grain Super Vel JHP, very popular with law enforcement personnel of that era, came in at 19,000. Super Vel velocity was about 10% slower than the Norma load.
The old "standard" .38 Special load was a 158 grain round nose bullet at 855 fps and a pressure of 17,000 psi (crusher). That was the original load, and it was the one for which all fixed sight revolvers were set up to hit POA at 25 yards. AFAIK, that is still true.
Jim
Jim
PatientWolf
New member
Thanks James K and Precision_shooter for clarifying my statement about being "chambered for..." I knew as I typed it that I was not using the correct term of designed for and stamped, but just couldn't find the right vocabulary to communicate it.