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38 special with 158 gr lswc ?
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
mikejonestkd
New member
Bullseye, SWC lead, and 38 specials go together like peas and carrots.
I have found that any load between 2.7 grains and 3.5 grains are all equally accurate for 158 gr SWCs.
My powder puff loads for j frames are 2.7 grains under a 158 gr mastercast.net SWC.
I bump the load up to 3.5 grains for K frames.
I have found that any load between 2.7 grains and 3.5 grains are all equally accurate for 158 gr SWCs.
My powder puff loads for j frames are 2.7 grains under a 158 gr mastercast.net SWC.
I bump the load up to 3.5 grains for K frames.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
Again, what they said.
If you want light recoil, load around 3.0 - 3.1 grains, or a bit less. If you want a more "normal" load, load 3.5 - 3.7 grains.
Accurate in every 38 spl. I've ever tried.......
Again, what they said.
If you want light recoil, load around 3.0 - 3.1 grains, or a bit less. If you want a more "normal" load, load 3.5 - 3.7 grains.
Accurate in every 38 spl. I've ever tried.......
Like everybody else has said, great load.
BUT
Have you GOT Bullseye powder???
Wouldn't want to share some with Dahermit would you? Or your source if not the powder itself.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=575284
BUT
Have you GOT Bullseye powder???
Wouldn't want to share some with Dahermit would you? Or your source if not the powder itself.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=575284
I would kill to get some of that stuff!Have you GOT Bullseye powder???
Wouldn't want to share some with Dahermit would you? Or your source if not the powder itself.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
3.4, 3.5, and 3.6 grains seem to be the universally listed maximums for 158 grain lead and the 3.5 for the LSWC, in particular with Bullseye powder. You will be OK with wpsdlrg's heavier load in all likelihood, but because it is over normal published values, the required warning has to go on top of the post.
3.4, 3.5, and 3.6 grains seem to be the universally listed maximums for 158 grain lead and the 3.5 for the LSWC, in particular with Bullseye powder. You will be OK with wpsdlrg's heavier load in all likelihood, but because it is over normal published values, the required warning has to go on top of the post.
Look for a load that gives you the standard 850fps. Make sure your slugs are uniformly made and weight variations are low.
Properly assembled the ammo will be accurate. Improperly done, not so much.
What is accurate in YOUR GUN can only be determined by firing in your gun!
"Accurate loads" are a good place to START, but realize that a match winning load might not be accurate (or as accurate) in your gun as something else.
Properly assembled the ammo will be accurate. Improperly done, not so much.
What is accurate in YOUR GUN can only be determined by firing in your gun!
"Accurate loads" are a good place to START, but realize that a match winning load might not be accurate (or as accurate) in your gun as something else.
Back in the sixties (when all the target shooting was done with either .45 ACP or .38 Special), the standard target load was 2.7 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain wadcutter bullet. There was some gossip in the gun rags that such a light load of Bullseye could cause a catastrophic failure via what there were calling, "detonation". However, such a failure was never able to be produced in a laboratory setting, no matter how hard they tried. The scientific people concluded therefore, that the failures were likely the result of the handloader using the wrong powder, or a drastic overload of Bullseye. I have no hesitation to use 2.7 in my .38, but it too does not meter that well through a Dillon powder measure and upon occasion I will get a lighter than normal report when shooting the .38 Special.
Two things need to be kept in mind about "Bullseye surprise" as they called it. One is it was generally concluded they were all double-charges. The only case of detonation of a fast pistol powder I've seen reported came with cases where the empty space was barely over 10% full, and where even a double-charge would not have come close to maximum rated pressure.
The other is that the 2.7 grain load is under a wadcutter seated flush with the case mouth, so the amount of powder space under it is smaller than about anything else you might load.
The other is that the 2.7 grain load is under a wadcutter seated flush with the case mouth, so the amount of powder space under it is smaller than about anything else you might load.
Like Unclenick says, 3.5 of Bullseye is the MAX load for a cast 158. 2.7 of Bullseye is the age old target load for 148 grain WC's.
And you need to work the load up from the start load(3.2 of Bullseye for a cast 158), not just pick a few and hope.
"...All the serious PPC shooters use them..." Isn't just the PPC guys. Bullseye shooters and any other target shooter using a .38.
And you need to work the load up from the start load(3.2 of Bullseye for a cast 158), not just pick a few and hope.
"...All the serious PPC shooters use them..." Isn't just the PPC guys. Bullseye shooters and any other target shooter using a .38.
I just did this with Trail Boss/158g LSWC from MBC. Hodgdon says 2.7-4.2
I loaded 10 @ 3.0, 10 @ 3.3 and 10 @3.7
These are "powder puff" loads for my fiance's LCR.
3.0 was nice, very little kick, plenty accurate for plinking
3.3 was feeling like a .380 pocket gun, snappy but not bad, very accurate.
3.7 was a lot like a low end Unique load and wasn't very accurate
YMMV, this was all out of a snub nose .38 LCR
I loaded 10 @ 3.0, 10 @ 3.3 and 10 @3.7
These are "powder puff" loads for my fiance's LCR.
3.0 was nice, very little kick, plenty accurate for plinking
3.3 was feeling like a .380 pocket gun, snappy but not bad, very accurate.
3.7 was a lot like a low end Unique load and wasn't very accurate
YMMV, this was all out of a snub nose .38 LCR
as hermit pointed out, detonation seems to be a non issue, as it is usually attributed to user error.
To be a little more specific, actually, detonation referrs to uncontrolled deflagration, or release of gasses and heat by either burning or decomposition. Smokeless powder deflagrates, and does not create a detonation. it is a low order explosive and it does not develop the energy necessary to create the nearly supersonic shock wave front that is a property of detonation.
With detonation, by use of highe explosives such as nitroglycerin, the wave front travels faster than a sound wave can propagate, and the product burns practically instantaneously. the wave front of a high explosive travels at a few miles per second.
For discussion purposes, the chemical composition of smokeless powder will not allow the product to detonate at this velocity. the component Nitroglycerin can detonate, but this product is buried so deeply in inert products and low order explosives that it is considered to be impossible to detonate it. I have read that it would take an inconceivably large mass of smokeless and careful handling to bring about the supersonic wave front that marks detonation.
This isn't very well written but the point to it is that a charge of bullseye can't detonate, and in fact, might have very little effect if it did detonate uncrompressed in a barrel. Instead, the damage comes from over pressure in a tightly fitted chamber
To be a little more specific, actually, detonation referrs to uncontrolled deflagration, or release of gasses and heat by either burning or decomposition. Smokeless powder deflagrates, and does not create a detonation. it is a low order explosive and it does not develop the energy necessary to create the nearly supersonic shock wave front that is a property of detonation.
With detonation, by use of highe explosives such as nitroglycerin, the wave front travels faster than a sound wave can propagate, and the product burns practically instantaneously. the wave front of a high explosive travels at a few miles per second.
For discussion purposes, the chemical composition of smokeless powder will not allow the product to detonate at this velocity. the component Nitroglycerin can detonate, but this product is buried so deeply in inert products and low order explosives that it is considered to be impossible to detonate it. I have read that it would take an inconceivably large mass of smokeless and careful handling to bring about the supersonic wave front that marks detonation.
This isn't very well written but the point to it is that a charge of bullseye can't detonate, and in fact, might have very little effect if it did detonate uncrompressed in a barrel. Instead, the damage comes from over pressure in a tightly fitted chamber
A point of terminology. Both deflagration and detonation are forms of combustion. By definition, deflagration is combustion at a rate below the speed of sound in the explosive material. Detonation is combustion at a rate above the speed of sound in the explosive material.
Gun powders can both deflagrate or detonate. In general, they deflagrate because the shock wave needed to present ignition energy for detonation does not transfer efficiently between small divisions (grains) in an explosive material that's not very shock sensitive. However, if you get a large enough pile in one place it can be detonated as the high inertial resistance of the surrounding mass allows the powder to compress enough at the leading edge of the shock wave to carry the wave forward through the grains, growing the explosion by further compressing the powder at its leading edge. Black powder is the same, but an even larger pile is needed. If you get one large enough (IIRC it needs to be several tons, but don't take that as gospel because my memory isn't clear on that) it can be detonated by a dynamite primer.
Detonation in firearms should theoretically never occur with any powder because of the grain divisions and relative shock insensitivity of the core material. However, in poor ignition there can be enough heat to fuse the grains together so the mass becomes contiguous. This is not an uncommon occurrence in loads that squib out because the powder started to burn, but later extinguished. You often find in such cases a lump of powder that is yellow from the graphite and outer layer having burned off, and that is a collect of fused grains. Such a lump can carry a detonation wave, and light loads or loads using powder with too slow a burn rate and showing spotty ignition and leaving irregular amounts of unburned powder behind are much more likely to squib out and fuse than a full load with adequate pressure.
Once fused, to get detonation all you need is an initiating wave. There have been lots of theories about this initiation occurring because of additive waves bouncing around in the empty case. The same thing was once theorized as a cause for gas/air mix detonation (knocking in engines). But after transparent cylinders were made of special glasses and ceramics and the phenomenon was filmed, it was found it always initiated at the hottest spot in the cylinder, regardless of what gas waves were doing. My guess is the same thing occurs in cartridge case detonations. First you get the fusing, but then some spot in the mass manages to sustain some level of deflagration, so it stays hot and initiates the detonation. I don't know if the exact mechanism for why this should happen is understood. Broadly, though, the fused mass will be hotter than normal itself, and the higher you heat an explosive, the less additional energy it needs to combust. Why that would grow into a shock wave in one instance and not in another, I don't know. The term "bad luck" comes to mind.
The Finnish Gunwriter's site describes a 308 rifle that was blown apart by a 3.1 grain charge of N320, a pistol powder with about the burn rate of 231. The cause is not a double-charge, as you'd need about five repeat charges that size just to reach normal 308 pressure. So I think perhaps the grains separated in all that empty space and the primer burned some, but not others, and the others were all in one place and got hot enough to fuse without igniting, and afterward a hot spot either from a late primer spark or the previous burning portion touched it and did what happens in knocking.
You can get a theoretical half-million psi at the powder lump location that way. Detonation, because it is faster than the speed of sound, occurs faster than the gas evolved can get away from the lump. This would make a temporary very high pressure region that could start a crack before the gas expands to fill the case. Such cracks need only a few hundred psi to finish breaking apart, and that's why such a small charge could cause such damage even if its final expanded gas pressure is too low to hurt the gun.
Gun powders can both deflagrate or detonate. In general, they deflagrate because the shock wave needed to present ignition energy for detonation does not transfer efficiently between small divisions (grains) in an explosive material that's not very shock sensitive. However, if you get a large enough pile in one place it can be detonated as the high inertial resistance of the surrounding mass allows the powder to compress enough at the leading edge of the shock wave to carry the wave forward through the grains, growing the explosion by further compressing the powder at its leading edge. Black powder is the same, but an even larger pile is needed. If you get one large enough (IIRC it needs to be several tons, but don't take that as gospel because my memory isn't clear on that) it can be detonated by a dynamite primer.
Detonation in firearms should theoretically never occur with any powder because of the grain divisions and relative shock insensitivity of the core material. However, in poor ignition there can be enough heat to fuse the grains together so the mass becomes contiguous. This is not an uncommon occurrence in loads that squib out because the powder started to burn, but later extinguished. You often find in such cases a lump of powder that is yellow from the graphite and outer layer having burned off, and that is a collect of fused grains. Such a lump can carry a detonation wave, and light loads or loads using powder with too slow a burn rate and showing spotty ignition and leaving irregular amounts of unburned powder behind are much more likely to squib out and fuse than a full load with adequate pressure.
Once fused, to get detonation all you need is an initiating wave. There have been lots of theories about this initiation occurring because of additive waves bouncing around in the empty case. The same thing was once theorized as a cause for gas/air mix detonation (knocking in engines). But after transparent cylinders were made of special glasses and ceramics and the phenomenon was filmed, it was found it always initiated at the hottest spot in the cylinder, regardless of what gas waves were doing. My guess is the same thing occurs in cartridge case detonations. First you get the fusing, but then some spot in the mass manages to sustain some level of deflagration, so it stays hot and initiates the detonation. I don't know if the exact mechanism for why this should happen is understood. Broadly, though, the fused mass will be hotter than normal itself, and the higher you heat an explosive, the less additional energy it needs to combust. Why that would grow into a shock wave in one instance and not in another, I don't know. The term "bad luck" comes to mind.
The Finnish Gunwriter's site describes a 308 rifle that was blown apart by a 3.1 grain charge of N320, a pistol powder with about the burn rate of 231. The cause is not a double-charge, as you'd need about five repeat charges that size just to reach normal 308 pressure. So I think perhaps the grains separated in all that empty space and the primer burned some, but not others, and the others were all in one place and got hot enough to fuse without igniting, and afterward a hot spot either from a late primer spark or the previous burning portion touched it and did what happens in knocking.
You can get a theoretical half-million psi at the powder lump location that way. Detonation, because it is faster than the speed of sound, occurs faster than the gas evolved can get away from the lump. This would make a temporary very high pressure region that could start a crack before the gas expands to fill the case. Such cracks need only a few hundred psi to finish breaking apart, and that's why such a small charge could cause such damage even if its final expanded gas pressure is too low to hurt the gun.
Okay, let me see if I understand this. For powder to detonate, regardless of whatever chemical or physical qualities, it appears that you are saying that high temp, high pressure, rapid "pounding" of the stuff into a mass, can make the powder susceptible to technically speaking, a detonation caused by a not well understood group of possibilities, such as a. Spark, during which the burn line advances more rapidly than it should, causing the flame front to advance quicker than sonic speed, and s, advance at the speed, or higher than a shock wave?
It almost sounds like you are saying that the powder becomes "primed" by heat, pressure, small changes in the mixture, etc, and then it is ready to detonate from a few possible sources of energy input.
If that's what you've explained I'm feeling pretty good about myself.
I've generally considered a simple test: can that product create a blast, all on its own, uncompressed and only nominally confined, with the addition of a minor amount of energy of the proper form. Many forms of he, including nitro glycerin can be burned with a match. You can hammer on some forms, or shoot them. They require the presence of heat and shock to actually explode. From what I gathered in your post, the powders properties become altered and it becomes a high explosive.
There was a thing I learned many years ago. Sometimes there is so much information available and a lot of thinking and theorizing, but in the end we are left with
"And then something magical happens."
That's a lot more common than most people would understand. We're still at that stage with gravity and unified field theories. It might as well be magic.
It almost sounds like you are saying that the powder becomes "primed" by heat, pressure, small changes in the mixture, etc, and then it is ready to detonate from a few possible sources of energy input.
If that's what you've explained I'm feeling pretty good about myself.
I've generally considered a simple test: can that product create a blast, all on its own, uncompressed and only nominally confined, with the addition of a minor amount of energy of the proper form. Many forms of he, including nitro glycerin can be burned with a match. You can hammer on some forms, or shoot them. They require the presence of heat and shock to actually explode. From what I gathered in your post, the powders properties become altered and it becomes a high explosive.
There was a thing I learned many years ago. Sometimes there is so much information available and a lot of thinking and theorizing, but in the end we are left with
"And then something magical happens."
That's a lot more common than most people would understand. We're still at that stage with gravity and unified field theories. It might as well be magic.