I had a question regarding loads for the 38 special using Unique powder and 125 grain plated Berry's bullets. My Lee reloading manual is a bit sparse with data regarding these bullets and Unique powder. As mentioned on the manufacturers website you can use any data for similar weighted bullets to work up some loads. The manual mentions that 6.0 gns of Unique with a 125 gn XTP as being a +P pressure round (the only data my book has for Unique and 125 gn bullets is for the XTP, same for Alliant's website). My question is does anyone see a problem with this load of 6.0 gns of Unique and 125 gn Berry's? I'm only firing them in my NM Ruger Blackhawk, my 686-6 Smith, or my Marlin lever action all of which are chambered in 357, I don't own any other .38 special guns so I would assume strength of the firearms wouldn't be an issue. The regular 38 special lists 5.7 gns of Unique as the max load for the 125 gn XTP, and I've tried this for a few but was looking to step up the velocity a bit. Thanks
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38 special Unique and Berrys
- Thread starter montana09
- Start date
When I played with plated bullets I used the suggestion I saw on one of the manufacturer's sites; use lead bullet data. I did and worked up loads bordering on max. velocity. I used 125 gr LRNFP data of 4.3-5.3 gr. Unique in my work ups. Some will claim Unique is "dirty", and at lighter loads it can be, but in upper/standard loads it burns "clean"...
I would suggest you get a better manual(s) as I have found the Lee load data to be lacking. My Lee manual lives on the shelf and is the last manual I use to check load data.
I would suggest you get a better manual(s) as I have found the Lee load data to be lacking. My Lee manual lives on the shelf and is the last manual I use to check load data.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
My Lee manual has been sitting on a shelf for at least ten years, and I don't think I have ever consulted it for load recipes.
With respect to Berry's bullets, and their suggestion to use mid-range loads for the same weight bullet -- you probably won't blow anything up following that advice, but you also may not be happy. I load mostly .45 ACP. Berry's web site says, for their plated 230-grain round-nose:
As for the claim that load data for their plated bullets can be found "in any manual or on any powder manufacturer’s website," well ... that ain't the case. I load with Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38. The Hodgdon/Winchester on-line load data do NOT include data for Berry's bullets. There is another powder manufacturer that does, but I don't remember which one it is. I don't use it, so it doesn't affect me.
I like Berry's bullets, but I really wish they would get their act together regarding loading data.
BTW ... I have also found some serious inconsistencies in the suggested C.O.A.L. suggestions on the Berry's web site. I contacted them, they responded to thank me and said they'd get back to me -- that was months ago, and I'm still waiting.
With respect to Berry's bullets, and their suggestion to use mid-range loads for the same weight bullet -- you probably won't blow anything up following that advice, but you also may not be happy. I load mostly .45 ACP. Berry's web site says, for their plated 230-grain round-nose:
When I started out, I used some mid-range data that I expected would produce velocities in the low 800s. Imagine my surprise when the chronograph reported that I was averaging barely 750 feet-per-second. So I started investigating, and I found that Berry's plated 230-gr was a shorter bullet than most jacketed FMJ bullets. So, when loaded to the same overall length as the FMJ bullets, the Berry's bullets leave more case volume under the bullet, resulting in less pressure and lower velocities.
- Load data for our Superior Plated Bullets® can be found in any manual or on any powder manufacturer’s website.
- Cast or jacketed data with the same grain weight and profile will work with our bullets.
As for the claim that load data for their plated bullets can be found "in any manual or on any powder manufacturer’s website," well ... that ain't the case. I load with Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38. The Hodgdon/Winchester on-line load data do NOT include data for Berry's bullets. There is another powder manufacturer that does, but I don't remember which one it is. I don't use it, so it doesn't affect me.
I like Berry's bullets, but I really wish they would get their act together regarding loading data.
BTW ... I have also found some serious inconsistencies in the suggested C.O.A.L. suggestions on the Berry's web site. I contacted them, they responded to thank me and said they'd get back to me -- that was months ago, and I'm still waiting.
"...My Lee manual..." Has the powder maker's(usually Hodgdon) data anyway. Lee tests nothing themselves.
However, it's light on 125 grain plated data(that is cast data) because a 125 is kind of an odd bullet weight for .38 Special.
Alliant Site(Max loads. Reduce by 10%.) shows Unique .38 data for a jacketed 125 only. Their +P data is only .3 of a grain more.
6.0 grains of Unique is the Max load for a jacketed 125. Reduce that by 10%. Do Not start at 6.0 for a plated bullet.
However, it's light on 125 grain plated data(that is cast data) because a 125 is kind of an odd bullet weight for .38 Special.
Alliant Site(Max loads. Reduce by 10%.) shows Unique .38 data for a jacketed 125 only. Their +P data is only .3 of a grain more.
6.0 grains of Unique is the Max load for a jacketed 125. Reduce that by 10%. Do Not start at 6.0 for a plated bullet.
Jim Watson
New member
Most sources (Lyman, Speer, Alliant) agree on 6 gr Unique as the Maximum 125 gr 38 +P load.
I see no need to reduce the charge for Specials to be shot in Magnum guns.
Now let's talk about the bullet. That load is somewhere near 1000 fps which Berry's are "rated" for.
But... my only adverse experience with plated bullets was at the IDPA nationals BUG side match where gun and ammo were issued on the firing line... a S&W 642 and Corbon practice ammo loaded with plated bullets. Shot by many people, the guns got hot and dirty. By the time I came up, they were spitting fragments of plating, showing multiple ragged holes in the closer targets.
I doubt you will abuse your gun like that, so you should be OK.
I see no need to reduce the charge for Specials to be shot in Magnum guns.
Now let's talk about the bullet. That load is somewhere near 1000 fps which Berry's are "rated" for.
But... my only adverse experience with plated bullets was at the IDPA nationals BUG side match where gun and ammo were issued on the firing line... a S&W 642 and Corbon practice ammo loaded with plated bullets. Shot by many people, the guns got hot and dirty. By the time I came up, they were spitting fragments of plating, showing multiple ragged holes in the closer targets.
I doubt you will abuse your gun like that, so you should be OK.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
Always do your own load work ups and never rely on anybody else's data (including mine). The following information is my experience only and is not intended to be used as a recommendation of any kind.
With a 125 JHP I have loaded 38 Special up to 6.6 grains of Unique in a work up. Yields 1095 f/s through a Smith model 67 (a 38 Special gun - not a 357) with a 4" bbl.
I made the set production loading at 6.4 grains. Yields 1083, 1071, & 1063 f/s in three different chronograph sessions, and three different load lots.
With a plated bullet (an X-treme 125 FP; which is very similar to the Berry's unit); I reduced the charge to 5.8 grains and yields 973 f/s. It's a good running round, but the hotter JHP's ran cleaner.
Unique actually doesn't work that well with 38 Special and 125's. It runs better with 158's. And IMO, Unique is really at its best pushing 125 JHP's in 357 Magnum. Unique likes pressure. In that environment, it runs every bit as clean as any other.
Getting back to 38 Special and 125's (plated or jacketed), I am more pleased with their consistency using propellants faster than Unique. W231 is always a great choice. Right now, I'm loading my 125 JHP's with AA#2 and am very pleased. They go down range in the 960 f/s neighborhood and do so with a sweet little low-recoil snap and no muzzle flash. A really nice shooter.
Always do your own load work ups and never rely on anybody else's data (including mine). The following information is my experience only and is not intended to be used as a recommendation of any kind.
With a 125 JHP I have loaded 38 Special up to 6.6 grains of Unique in a work up. Yields 1095 f/s through a Smith model 67 (a 38 Special gun - not a 357) with a 4" bbl.
I made the set production loading at 6.4 grains. Yields 1083, 1071, & 1063 f/s in three different chronograph sessions, and three different load lots.
With a plated bullet (an X-treme 125 FP; which is very similar to the Berry's unit); I reduced the charge to 5.8 grains and yields 973 f/s. It's a good running round, but the hotter JHP's ran cleaner.
Unique actually doesn't work that well with 38 Special and 125's. It runs better with 158's. And IMO, Unique is really at its best pushing 125 JHP's in 357 Magnum. Unique likes pressure. In that environment, it runs every bit as clean as any other.
Getting back to 38 Special and 125's (plated or jacketed), I am more pleased with their consistency using propellants faster than Unique. W231 is always a great choice. Right now, I'm loading my 125 JHP's with AA#2 and am very pleased. They go down range in the 960 f/s neighborhood and do so with a sweet little low-recoil snap and no muzzle flash. A really nice shooter.
If you want to get near the speed of sound with the plated bullets, my approach would be to take advantage of your chambers and use .357 cases. The flat point Berry's are short enough to let you do that. In the big case, you can get there with a faster powder than Unique that will burn cleaner at lower pressure, like Hodgdon Universal, for which about 5.5-6.5 grains will get you there and leave you with a little headroom to spare (Hodgdon's maximum load of Universal in .357 with either a cast LRNFP bullet is 6.8 grains booking at about 1,400 fps from a 10" barrel, which ought to be about 1240 fps out of a 4" barrel with closed breech, and about 1160 fps out of a barrel with a 0.006" barrel/cylinder gap from BBTI's data ). I would also consider coating them with hex-form boron nitride to limit copper fouling and help them get into the bore at lower start pressure.
The use of the big case also avoids the fouling ring build-up that can occur in front of a 38 Special case that can interfere with subsequent chambering a 357 Magnum case.
The use of the big case also avoids the fouling ring build-up that can occur in front of a 38 Special case that can interfere with subsequent chambering a 357 Magnum case.
6.0 grains of Unique and a 125 grain plated bullet is just at or a couple tenths of a grain below the starting loads for 357 magnum loads .
For 38 special I would call them above +P maybe +P+ ...you might not want to fire them in a Airweight J frame in 38 special ... a modern K frame might be OK , new model 64 but they are HOT 38 specials .
Fired from any gun chambered for 357 magnum is fine...this load would be considered light 357 magnum load .
I would load them in 357 brass just for safety's sake ... not that 38 special brass couldn't take the load pressure...it can , you don't want to chamber one in a light 38 special revolver...you know...better safe than sorry .
Gary
For 38 special I would call them above +P maybe +P+ ...you might not want to fire them in a Airweight J frame in 38 special ... a modern K frame might be OK , new model 64 but they are HOT 38 specials .
Fired from any gun chambered for 357 magnum is fine...this load would be considered light 357 magnum load .
I would load them in 357 brass just for safety's sake ... not that 38 special brass couldn't take the load pressure...it can , you don't want to chamber one in a light 38 special revolver...you know...better safe than sorry .
Gary
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Except that .357 brass is longer than .38 special brass.gwpercle said:6.0 grains of Unique and a 125 grain plated bullet is just at or a couple tenths of a grain below the starting loads for 357 magnum loads .
For 38 special I would call them above +P maybe +P+ ...you might not want to fire them in a Airweight J frame in 38 special ... a modern K frame might be OK , new model 64 but they are HOT 38 specials .
Fired from any gun chambered for 357 magnum is fine...this load would be considered light 357 magnum load .
TruthTellers
New member
I just started using the Berry's .32 bullet for use in .32 revolvers, specifically .327. I wanted something low velocity because I want a soft shooting .32, but also because Berry's says not to exceed 1250 FPS or the plating will be stripped off.
Keep the velocities under 1200 to avoid that. If 6 grains of Unique is equivalent to 1000 fps, you should be fine.
I would also suggest if you crimp to use a taper crimp and not a roll crimp. I used a .32 ACP seating die to do the taper crimp, so for you I'd try using a 9mm die to do the taper crimp.
I feel that using the same crimp for a bullet meant to be used in an automatic is best for accuracy.
Good luck.
Keep the velocities under 1200 to avoid that. If 6 grains of Unique is equivalent to 1000 fps, you should be fine.
I would also suggest if you crimp to use a taper crimp and not a roll crimp. I used a .32 ACP seating die to do the taper crimp, so for you I'd try using a 9mm die to do the taper crimp.
I feel that using the same crimp for a bullet meant to be used in an automatic is best for accuracy.
Good luck.
ShootMeStraight
New member
Depends on the manufacturer. I buy Campro plates bullets and they are rated for 2000fps. Berry’s 350gr for 500 S&W are also rated for 2000fps.MY understanding was that plated bullets were to be loaded to no faster than 1200fps or mid range of jacketed, whatever is lower...........
stinkeypete
New member
Reading the original post- these are for .357 magnum guns and the OP has no .38 Special guns in his collection.
The loads he is listing are all at or below starting points for any .357 Magnum loads for bullets anything close to 125 jacketed or cast.
My wild @ guess is a velocity around 775 FPS.
Unique will work. I would use an appropriate amount of 231 or Bullseye but whatever.
So will .357 Magnum cases and COL.
1. Over the next 25 years you or you heirs may look in your ammo box and think “oh cool, .38 Special Cartridges.” For a strong .38 gun in good condition I think it’s unlikely to blow up in their hand like a cherry bomb in a snowball chucked at the neighbor’s fence. Don’t ask.
2. My .357 lever gun hated .38 special factory, it often choked and caught on the cycling while .357 ran smooth.
3. I’ve found seating the COL so there is less jump to the forcing cone has always been more accurate in my revolvers and I never liked putting shorter brass in a cylinder because theoretically and in Internet wisdom a ring of crud could build up that would “choke” subsequent .357 rounds. Practically, I suspect that’s baloney as we can clean.. but why worry about it? You’ve got the .357 Magnum brass, it’s not the apocalypse and you need to use brass that is .135” shorter.
Using an amount of Unique in a .357 Magnum case that is just at or below the starting value of any bullet you can find data for, cast or jacketed... who can object to that?
Having hot loads you worry about in cases labeled in a way that might make you sorry down the road- why do that?
Why not have a COL that’s gonna be more than an eighth of an inch closer to the designed dimensions of your chamber?
My advice: Use .357 Magnum brass. I don’t see any point to using .38 Special brass for warm loads to be shot in .357 firearms. As the fellas above said.
The loads he is listing are all at or below starting points for any .357 Magnum loads for bullets anything close to 125 jacketed or cast.
My wild @ guess is a velocity around 775 FPS.
Unique will work. I would use an appropriate amount of 231 or Bullseye but whatever.
So will .357 Magnum cases and COL.
1. Over the next 25 years you or you heirs may look in your ammo box and think “oh cool, .38 Special Cartridges.” For a strong .38 gun in good condition I think it’s unlikely to blow up in their hand like a cherry bomb in a snowball chucked at the neighbor’s fence. Don’t ask.
2. My .357 lever gun hated .38 special factory, it often choked and caught on the cycling while .357 ran smooth.
3. I’ve found seating the COL so there is less jump to the forcing cone has always been more accurate in my revolvers and I never liked putting shorter brass in a cylinder because theoretically and in Internet wisdom a ring of crud could build up that would “choke” subsequent .357 rounds. Practically, I suspect that’s baloney as we can clean.. but why worry about it? You’ve got the .357 Magnum brass, it’s not the apocalypse and you need to use brass that is .135” shorter.
Using an amount of Unique in a .357 Magnum case that is just at or below the starting value of any bullet you can find data for, cast or jacketed... who can object to that?
Having hot loads you worry about in cases labeled in a way that might make you sorry down the road- why do that?
Why not have a COL that’s gonna be more than an eighth of an inch closer to the designed dimensions of your chamber?
My advice: Use .357 Magnum brass. I don’t see any point to using .38 Special brass for warm loads to be shot in .357 firearms. As the fellas above said.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Berry's rifle bullets have a heavier plating. The handgun bullets are limited to 1250 fps. The 500 S&W is a special case.ShootMeStraight said:Depends on the manufacturer. I buy Campro plates bullets and they are rated for 2000fps. Berry’s 350gr for 500 S&W are also rated for 2000fps.
Yes and no. The problem is, bullets will tolerate only a certain amount of peak pressure before fouling gets problematic. That same peak pressure won't produce the same velocity in different length barrels, so I view the velocity limitations as arbitrary without barrel length and powder charge information being included with it. If I take a 38+P load with a 125-grain plated bullet to that "1200 fps limit" in a 4" revolver using a charge of Power Pistol and then shoot the same load through a 20" carbine barrel, it will come out of the carbine at about 1650 fps without ever experiencing any more damaging forces that it did in the 4" revolver, nor causing any more fouling. So, do we call it a 1200 fps bullet or a 1650 fps bullet? By themselves, neither number is useful. What they should do is follow the late Richard Lee's example and post a maximum peak pressure for them. Then people could zero in on an appropriate load limit by extrapolating from published pressure and velocity data like Hodgdon's.
Yes and no. The problem is, bullets will tolerate only a certain amount of peak pressure before fouling gets problematic. That same peak pressure won't produce the same velocity in different length barrels, so I view the velocity limitations as arbitrary without barrel length and powder charge information being included with it. If I take a 38+P load with a 125-grain plated bullet to that "1200 fps limit" in a 4" revolver using a charge of Power Pistol and then shoot the same load through a 20" carbine barrel, it will come out of the carbine at about 1650 fps without ever experiencing any more damaging forces that it did in the 4" revolver, nor causing any more fouling. So, do we call it a 1200 fps bullet or a 1650 fps bullet? By themselves, neither number is useful. What they should do is follow the late Richard Lee's example and post a maximum peak pressure for them. Then people could zero in on an appropriate load limit by extrapolating from published pressure and velocity data like Hodgdon's.
Bravo!
Bravo!
+1 here too.
I wanted to write a similar post, but wouldn't have done it nearly as well as Unclenick.
It irks me to no end when plated bullet manufacturers put a velocity limit on their boxes. It's a worse-than-useless guideline. Highly misleading at best.
I load a lot of plated bullets. And they are great for what they are - an affordable alternative to lead bullets that don't foul the barrel, don't smoke up the range (no burning lube; and no stinky polymer coatings), and are much cleaner and easier to deal with at the load bench. However, they a NOT a low-cost substitute for jacketed bullets. If you're running hot, run jacketed.
I have had better luck with hard cast with a good crimp groove than plated in 38 and 357 mag and 44 too. I'm not sure if your bullets have a cannelure and that can lead to inconsistent ignition. I think plated work fine for auto pistols within a narrow velocity range maxing around 1100fps. If no crimp groove you may have better luck with a tight taper crimp than roll crimp. You can use a 9mm or 38 super or maybe even a 380 crimp die to get the right crimp on your 38 cases when no cannelure is on your bullets. Crimping into the jacket of a plated bullet causes lots of problems. rc