38 Special Roll vs Taper Crimp
- Thread starter tranders
- Start date
Kevin Rohrer
New member
Roll crimps tend to bite into the bullet better than taper crimps, but w/ light loads, it should make no difference.
With heavy hunting loads, there might be a difference. Bullets that walk out of casings during heavy recoil may jam the cylinder, preventing it from turning.
With heavy hunting loads, there might be a difference. Bullets that walk out of casings during heavy recoil may jam the cylinder, preventing it from turning.
jetinteriorguy
New member
If by target rounds you mean your typical 148gr WC over 2.8gr BE, or something similar, no crimp is needed. Just seat them so the bullet is almost flush and remove the flare.
disseminator
New member
If the bullet has no crimp groove, then a taper crimp on light loads will eliminate the need for trimming which is a VERY nice benefit indeed.
I use a Redding taper crimp for the cheap plated rounds in 44 Magnum (with sub 1000fps velocities) and in my 45 Colt when shooting plated bullets meant for 45 ACP without a crimp ring.
It works great, just mind that your loads stay light.
I use a Redding taper crimp for the cheap plated rounds in 44 Magnum (with sub 1000fps velocities) and in my 45 Colt when shooting plated bullets meant for 45 ACP without a crimp ring.
It works great, just mind that your loads stay light.
1) I believe the reason for the taper crimp die has to do with people loading plated bullets that don't have a crimp groove.
2) I do not agree that you can eliminate all crimp on .38 Special wadcutter target rounds. Lots of tests have shown that some crimp is required for uniform ignition, and a big effect accuracy.
3) I do not have test results for this, but I suspect there will be little, if any, difference in case life vis-a-vis neck splits between roll crimps and taper crimps when using slugs that have crimp grooves.
2) I do not agree that you can eliminate all crimp on .38 Special wadcutter target rounds. Lots of tests have shown that some crimp is required for uniform ignition, and a big effect accuracy.
3) I do not have test results for this, but I suspect there will be little, if any, difference in case life vis-a-vis neck splits between roll crimps and taper crimps when using slugs that have crimp grooves.
"Heavy hunting loads", in a .38 Special? I do not follow the logic here...the only game I can think of in terms of heavy hunting loads would be deer or pigs. However, I suspect that hardly any on this forum would admit to shooting deer or pigs with a .38 Special. Also, for any game smaller than deer or pigs, there would be no need for "heavy hunting loads". But, I am getting old and maybe someone needs to explain it to me.
Yes.
The biggest single advantage is that it preserves the brass. Roll crimping is harder on the case mouth and you'll see cracking at the mouth sooner by roll crimping rather than taper crimping. Much sooner, actually.
The other major advantage is with plated bullets (you didn't mention what kind of bullets/weights you're loading). Taper crimping won't perforate the thin copper plating nearly as easily as roll crimping.
Most target rounds are with lead HBWC's (148), DEWC's (148), and SWC's (158). All of these can be taper crimped. The load is light enough, and the bullet has plenty of bearing surface to the case where a light taper crimp is plenty. As other's have said, just removing the flair is sufficient. This can be done with a roll crimp die (or Redding Profile Crimp Die, etc.). But I use, and personally believe a taper crimp die is the ideal tool for this job. But my way is certainly not the only way.
I load and shoot - by far - more 38 Special than any other chambering. I use a wide variety of bullet types. Lead 148 DEWC's (mostly); 158 & 178 SWC's; as well as plated 125 & 158 FP's; & 158 PSWC's. All of these bullet types get a taper crimp at my bench.
And then I load the occasional 110, 125, & 158 jacketed HP's - which these all get a roll crimp.
I kind of bunny-trailed a little bit there - sorry - the coffee hasn't kicked in
. Point is, yes, a taper crimp die (I use RCBS) is an excellent addition to your 38 Special loading hardware. At least it is for me. If you load a lot of these bullet types/applications, your TCD will get a lot of use, and is thus, an excellent investment.It was "heavy, hunting loads" in .38 Special that led to the .38-44 loads and then the .357 Magnum. The fact that most people today use the bigger, more effective rounds for hunting doesn't change the crimp requirements of the heavy .38 loads.
You could also include any +P .38 loads in "heavy, hunting loads" though today we talk about them almost exclusively as self defense rounds.
(note I am putting a comma in "heavy, hunting loads" to emphasize that I am talking about heavy loads, for hunting, and not loads for "heavy hunting" like dangerous game such as water buffalo (ok an extreme choice, to make a point)
The .38 Special is in a curious position, regarding crimp being needed to prevent bullet jump in revolvers. And that position is, that it isn't always needed, it depends on the load, and the gun it is being fired from.
Its at the point where the mass of the bullet (its inertia), and the recoil round produces in the gun can go either way, depending on specific factors.
I've run a few tests with my personal guns, and while I do always crimp, (roll crimp because of the dies I use) I do not NEED to, when firing certain loads in certain guns. And in other guns I need to crimp the same exact load, or bullet jump results.
While adequate for most jobs, a taper crimp and a bullet with no crimp groove is not as strongly held as a bullet with a crimp groove and a roll crimp.
When you get to the outer ends of the bell curve, this can make a difference.
Revolver cylinders are kinetic bullet pullers during recoil. The direction is opposite the hammer type pullet we use breaking down ammo, but the result is the same. What varies is the amount of force applied being enough to pull the bullet or not.
The heavier the load (recoil) and the lighter the revolver (the bullet puller) the "harder the swing" so the more force acting on the bullet's inertia.
In other words, no crimp or a very light crimp on loads fired from a S&W N frame might be plenty to hold the bullets in place, but might not be enough crimp to hold the bullets in place firing the same loads from an airweight snubnose.
I can see a die maker offering a taper crimp .38 because of today's crop of plated bullets without crimp grooves being popular. I don't use bullets like that, so its of no interest to me, but if you do, and because a roll crimp can rupture the plating, I can see where someone might buy and use a taper crimp .38 Special die.
I have used plated bullets, (though not often) but all the ones I've used have been plated versions of the usual revolver lead bullet design, with a crimp groove, so roll crimp was no issue, I just loaded them like normal.
I shoot a lot of .38 Special with 125 grains cast lead bullets and 2.7 grains of Bullseye...a very light load. I only "roll crimp" enough to remove the necessary flair to get the bullet seated. After extensive shooting of the same cases, the cases began to split. I doubt if the slight crimp (removing the flare), I put in with the roll crimp would be any different than what a taper crimp would do, case lifewise. Both taper crimp and roll crimp still require flaring the case in the loading process. That is where most of the work hardening of the brass comes from...flaring. So, not much can be gained by using a taper crimp die in my particular case. If I wished to be shooting some, "knock-um, sock-um" loads I would be using a .357, not a .38 Special.
I don't put a roll on plated bullets or some Armscor jacketed I bought through Dillon that had no crimp groove. On the rest with crimp grooves I use a pronounced roll but not heavy enough to visibly damage the brass rim. That's the way I do it, just cuz. I think a perfect roll crimp is the mark of a craftsman. I also trim some brass if the crimp appears too inconsistent. I also sort headtsamps because of the possible effect of mixed on the quality and consistency of the crimp. I also reserve Remington brass (RP) for lead bullets, because the case walls are thinner and the cases (ID) don't size down as small as other head stamps.
It's all about the quality and consistency of the crimp. Aside from performance, I would like to have reloads that look like factory new, although I don't go crazy trying to get the shiniest brass in the State.
It's all about the quality and consistency of the crimp. Aside from performance, I would like to have reloads that look like factory new, although I don't go crazy trying to get the shiniest brass in the State.
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Yep, that's my experience too...but it's true only for very light target loads. A good discussion of the above can be found in the NRA paperback book on reloading...articles by Harrison and Al Dinan are exhaustive in their experimentation with crimps, lead alloy strength and seating depth.
Personally, I've used only a taper crimp with .38/.357 loads up to 1100 fps or so, and only a mild taper at that, with good results and generally, better accuracy than with a roll crimp. Seems like the taper variety is less dependent on overall brass length for a consistent load.
Too, if you're shooting lead alloy bullets, the taper crimp does less damage to the bullet, ie. does not 'resize' the bullet as you seat it in the case; a critical factor for gilt-edge accuracy.
44AMP has this right>>>
BTW, Nick's comments in the preceding post are right on the mark...as always!
HTH's Rod
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As Unclenick said, try it and see. While shooting a lot of PPC competition, I experimented widely on taper/roll crimp, but could never show significant differences. For those who say you should never roll crimp wadcutter loads, check Winchester and Federal factory match wadcutter ammo: all roll crimped the last time I looked.
I don't see what a taper crimp would offer with low velocity lead bullets. First the bullets are larger than the die set was designed to load, so the bullets are very tight in the case, barring an R.P headstamp with thin case walls. Secondly, a standard die set with roll crimp die could simply be set not to roll. I use a roll simply because, if I don't, the rounds will not pass gauging. If a taper crimp is a solution to that, then it would have to be swaging the bullet.
Taper crimps were first becoming widely popular around the time I started shooting bull's eye matches in the 70's. The reason was case life. I've had .45 Auto cases go past 50 reloads with target loads and taper crimping. They do slightly crush the bullet, but forward of the base. As long as the base remains square, there's no apparent group size penalty.
I can believe that taper crimps make for better feeding rounds in autopistols. Roll crimps and taper crimps will slightly crush the bullet, but whatever inaccuracy is introduced, you just don't see it in handguns. The NRA ten ring is four inches at 50 yards, that is huge compared to centerfire rifle targets where you will see inaccuracy due to bullet distortion, but at distances equal to hundreds of yards. A tight bullet fit within the case and a light crimp, roll or taper crimp, will produce outstanding accuracy in the 38 Special.
Lee makes a "taper crimp" die that I am not sure just what it is, seems to be a modified roll crimp. Ammunition made with it shoots and functions fine.