38 Special +P loading

Danb6177

New member
Clarifying question, I see in my manual for example: 125 gr. JHP using 231 powder suggest a starting grain of 3.9 with a max load of 5.1. There is also a max rating for +P which is 5.4.
Im assuming if Im loading +P's using this bullet the suggested is the same as normal specials and I can load em more on the top end (up t 5.4)

What throws me off is some powders dont have +P max load rating. Does this mean not to use that powder for +P loads? Or does it mean the specs for the +P are identical to normal specials for that powder?
 
If there is no +P load data for a powder, the publisher of the manual probably didn't test it to +P levels.
If the load has no load for +P, the pressure is SAAMI spec for standard velocity.
 
+P loads are for guns strong enough to handle magnum like power. What are you shooting? The 38 Special revolvers that can handle that load are so marked, I have a S&W and Colt that are not marked +P and I would never go above the 38 Special load recomendations. When I feel the need for muzzle flash I shoot a magnum.
 
231 will work well with 125 grain bullets. Work up middle of the road loads to Max. If you have a chronograph let it be your guide. 231 is a very good powder for +P 38s and 125s are a good bullet weight if they shoot to point of aim in your gun or it has adjustable sights. 158grain loads are of course the standard in 38 but I've shot a lot of 110s and 125s back when they were cheap to buy.
 
What throws me off is some powders dont have +P max load rating. Does this mean not to use that powder for +P loads?

Don't use powders or amounts you do not have tested data for.

If there is no data in the range you are looking for with a particular powder, it means there is NO DATA.

There are numerous reasons why a particular loading does not appear in the manuals, and the testers are under no obligation to explain.

I could be the powder in question became erratic when loaded above standard levels. It could be that they simply ran out of powder, or time, or space in the manual. It could be any of several different reasons, none of which matters to you or I, IF you follow the rule of not using a load you don't have tested data for.

Its your gun and your choice, you can do anything you decide to do (once, anyway :rolleyes:) but if you're not following tested data, the results, good or bad are all on you.
 
+p is a pressure rating. Some cartridges have it, some do not. Only use +p loads in guns specifically rated for +p. Most say not to use +p loads in their manuals.
 
The 38 Special specifications from the SAAMI specs (scroll down to the pages labeled 14 and 15 on the bottom, here) are currently 17,000 psi or CUP (usually not the same magnitude, but they are for this cartridge) Maximum Average Pressure (the maximum average peak pressure value for ten rounds of freshly loaded ammunition) for the standard load, and 20,000 psi or CUP for the +P load. So, the +P pressure is almost 18% higher than the standard load. This is not magnum pressure. The 357 Magnum is over twice the pressure of a standard 38 Special.

The reason for the smaller-than-magnum difference is that, unlike the magnum cartridge, which has a longer case, there is nothing to prevent a +P load from being chambered in a revolver that is not meant for the higher pressure. SAAMI keeps this safe by specifying the same proof pressure range for the standard 38 Special and the 38 Special +P. In other words, even a gun meant only for the standard round is expected to be able to tolerate the +P round. I do not know when this became standard, but it is so in both the current SAAMI standard and the 1993 standard. Unless we can narrow this down, +P loads would be questionable in some guns made before 1993.

The original (1953) Model S&W M&P (later Model 12) Airweight revolvers are an example of something very vulnerable to stretching by +P loads, as they were famous for their aluminum cylinders and frames stretching even with standard 38 Special ammunition, at least in the early days. I know the cylinders were switched to steel in 1954, but I don't know when the frame alloy might have been changed. Perhaps someone with more specific S&W knowledge will be able to say.

As to published loads, I have a method of approximating +P from standard loads, but it is complicated enough that I am not sanguine about posting it. Some powders get spikey (have more and higher pressure swings) when you try to increase them, so it is still best to use pressure measuring equipment to do this. Even then, you have to take some steps to try to see how your gun deals with the published lower-pressure loads and what the change in velocity per grain looks like to get an idea of when it is safe.

Never rely on a chronograph alone to tell you what pressure you are getting. It may be used in conjunction with interior ballistics software to get an estimate, but peak pressure goes up faster than velocity as you increase the powder charge. They are not directly proportional to one another except, perhaps, in a derringer, where the barrel is short enough not to let the peak pressure drop much by the time the bullet clears the muzzle. There are other reasons any such approach can fail. Chronograph calibration, for one. A pressure gun is still the best approach.
 
+P loads are for guns strong enough to handle magnum like power. What are you shooting? The 38 Special revolvers that can handle that load are so marked, I have a S&W and Colt that are not marked +P and I would never go above the 38 Special load recomendations. When I feel the need for muzzle flash I shoot a magnum.
Shooting out of a 357
 
Don't use powders or amounts you do not have tested data for.

If there is no data in the range you are looking for with a particular powder, it means there is NO DATA.

There are numerous reasons why a particular loading does not appear in the manuals, and the testers are under no obligation to explain.

I could be the powder in question became erratic when loaded above standard levels. It could be that they simply ran out of powder, or time, or space in the manual. It could be any of several different reasons, none of which matters to you or I, IF you follow the rule of not using a load you don't have tested data for.

Its your gun and your choice, you can do anything you decide to do (once, anyway :rolleyes:) but if you're not following tested data, the results, good or bad are all on you.
Thanks for that, I think solid advice
 
231 will work well with 125 grain bullets. Work up middle of the road loads to Max. If you have a chronograph let it be your guide. 231 is a very good powder for +P 38s and 125s are a good bullet weight if they shoot to point of aim in your gun or it has adjustable sights. 158grain loads are of course the standard in 38 but I've shot a lot of 110s and 125s back when they were cheap to buy.
I was talking to a guy at work that reloads and he gave me similar advice. Thanks!
 
The 38 Special specifications from the SAAMI specs (scroll down to the pages labeled 14 and 15 on the bottom, here) are currently 17,000 psi or CUP (usually not the same magnitude, but they are for this cartridge) Maximum Average Pressure (the maximum average peak pressure value for ten rounds of freshly loaded ammunition) for the standard load, and 20,000 psi or CUP for the +P load. So, the +P pressure is almost 18% higher than the standard load. This is not magnum pressure. The 357 Magnum is over twice the pressure of a standard 38 Special.

The reason for the smaller-than-magnum difference is that, unlike the magnum cartridge, which has a longer case, there is nothing to prevent a +P load from being chambered in a revolver that is not meant for the higher pressure. SAAMI keeps this safe by specifying the same proof pressure range for the standard 38 Special and the 38 Special +P. In other words, even a gun meant only for the standard round is expected to be able to tolerate the +P round. I do not know when this became standard, but it is so in both the current SAAMI standard and the 1993 standard. Unless we can narrow this down, +P loads would be questionable in some guns made before 1993.

The original (1953) Model S&W M&P (later Model 12) Airweight revolvers are an example of something very vulnerable to stretching by +P loads, as they were famous for their aluminum cylinders and frames stretching even with standard 38 Special ammunition, at least in the early days. I know the cylinders were switched to steel in 1954, but I don't know when the frame alloy might have been changed. Perhaps someone with more specific S&W knowledge will be able to say.

As to published loads, I have a method of approximating +P from standard loads, but it is complicated enough that I am not sanguine about posting it. Some powders get spikey (have more and higher pressure swings) when you try to increase them, so it is still best to use pressure measuring equipment to do this. Even then, you have to take some steps to try to see how your gun deals with the published lower-pressure loads and what the change in velocity per grain looks like to get an idea of when it is safe.

Never rely on a chronograph alone to tell you what pressure you are getting. It may be used in conjunction with interior ballistics software to get an estimate, but peak pressure goes up faster than velocity as you increase the powder charge. They are not directly proportional to one another except, perhaps, in a derringer, where the barrel is short enough not to let the peak pressure drop much by the time the bullet clears the muzzle. There are other reasons any such approach can fail. Chronograph calibration, for one. A pressure gun is still the best approach.
Thanks for the informative reply. I do have an airweight 38 special, but i will not be shooting anything but specials out of that.
I did look on the Hodgden and alliance websites and they actually have date for the +Ps. Its not with 231 powder but I may follow one of those to make the +P rounds until Im comfortable thinking on my own.

This ia an awesome forum BTW, you guys are super helpful!
 
I have loaded that 231 load with 125 Gr XTP’s and get about 950 FPS in a 4” Model 10.
To give you a reference point.
 
I tried to look up the free data reference sites but it seems Hodgdon no longer supports free data so far as I could find. Maybe someone else will have better luck turning up a link.
 
Yep. Most of us dislike the change, as, unless they fixed it recently, it forces you to look at all the data for one bullet weight or just one powder's data. It will no longer let you select a few powders you want to compare on one table.
 
Originally posted by scatterbrain
+P loads are for guns strong enough to handle magnum like power. What are you shooting? The 38 Special revolvers that can handle that load are so marked, I have a S&W and Colt that are not marked +P and I would never go above the 38 Special load recommendations. When I feel the need for muzzle flash I shoot a magnum.

This isn't really accurate. As Unclenick pointed out, .357 Magnum operates at substantially higher pressure (35,000 psi) than .38 Special (17,000 psi) or .38 Special +P (20,000 psi). There are many revolvers which can handle .38 +P just fine, but would likely be unsafe, or at the very least would beat themselves to death in short order if fired with ammunition generating .357 Magnum pressures. A good example of this are the currently produced S&W Airweight (aluminum frame) J-Frame revolvers. S&W specifically rates them for +P ammunition, but they cannot handle .357 Magnum. This is why all of the lightweight J-Frames chambered for .357 Magnum have scandium-alloy rather than straight aluminun frames.

Also, there are a lot of revolvers which can handle .38 Special +P just fine but are not so-marked as they predated the +P designation. S&W states that any steel-frame revolver built on their K-Frame which includes the Models 10, 14, 15, 64 and 67 can handle +P just fine so long as it is an example marked with a model number (model numbers were introduced in 1958). Also, many even older .38 Special revolvers like S&W's .38/44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman (later designated Models 20 and 23) and Colt's New Service can handle .38 +P without issue as they were originally designed to shoot the .38/44 cartridge which was substantially higher pressure than even modern .38 Special +P and was probably closer to .357 Magnum in both pressure and velocity.

Even in a revolver which isn't rated for +P ammunition, unless the gun is of extremely poor quality or in very poor condition shooting +P ammunition isn't likely to blow it up but will likely cause accelerated wear. Personally, I will shoot limited amounts of +P ammunition through older small-frame guns with steel frames such as S&W J-Frames like the Models 36, 40, 49, or 60 or Colt D-Frame like a Detective Special or Diamondback. Older aluminum frame guns like the S&W models 12, 37, 38, and 42 or Colt Cobra (not the new one as it has a steel frame) or Agent, however, I personally wouldn't shoot +P in at all.

Another story all together, however, is .38 Special +P+ ammunition such as the famous 110 gr +P+ "Treasury Load". These loadings were only ever marketed and intended to be sold to Law Enforcement and, often times, were specified by their makers to only be shot in .357 Magnum revolvers. As I understand it, this was a clever attempt to get around the political incorrectness of police carrying magnum ammunition. The way it would work is that the police agency would issue or authorize .357 Magnum revolvers like a S&W M19 or 66, but specify that it was to be carried with .38 Special +P+ ammunition that way they could claim that while the cops were carrying .357 Magnum revolvers, "we only load them with .38's". The only .38 Special revolver I would consider shooting .38 +P+ ammunition in would be something like the above-mentioned S&W N-Frames or one of the so-chambered Ruger GP100 or Security/Speed/Police Service Six models.
 
Another thing to understand is the way that SAAMI pressure ratings work.

First off, the pressure ratings are for day in day out use, (not counting proof pressures) they are NOT the safety limits of the gun.

some cartridges have a SAAMI +P pressure rating, many do not.

IF the ammo is above the standard pressure rating, even by a tiny amount, it, under SAAMI guidelines must be listed in the higher pressure classification.

For example, if standard (working) pressure max is 18,000, and the load goes 18,100 then it is +P.

IF the +p Max is 21,000 and any of the tested rounds are above that, by any amount, then the load is classed +P+

+P+ has no upper limit, only the lower limit of +P pressure. If it is any amount over +P pressure its +P+ and could be anything from just barely over +P to a "turn your gun into a grenade" dangerous level. There is no SAAMI standard once you pass +P level (if the cartridge is one that has a SAAMI +p standard)

Next point is that SAAMI standards are voluntary, and while makers generally do hold to them, they are not required to.

Regarding the FBI load, the information I have is that the FBI wanted a specific velocity with a specific bullet, and got it, but the pressure was slightly above +P. The ammo makers, informed the FBI of that, and the FBI didn't care, they wanted what they wanted, and so the ammo makers made it for them. That load was not made for general public sale, only for LEO use, though some of it did reach the civilian market, it wasn't sold to the public by the makers.

The real problem with shooting higher than standard pressure ammo in guns not rated for that is frame stretching. Everything else, can be repaired, but not the frames. Guns that get battered out of time, can have parts replaced and returned to service, sometimes more than once. But when the frame stretches beyond allowable limits, the gun is done. Worn out, used up, cannot be repaired, and will not be repaired by the manufacturers.

They'll simply tell you the gun is not repairable, and you need to buy another. Often they will offer one at a discount.
 
+p is a pressure rating. Some cartridges have it, some do not. Only use +p loads in guns specifically rated for +p. Most say not to use +p loads in their manuals.
They also say to not use reloads in their guns ;)
 
Also consider that not all ammunition is loaded to SAAMI specifications. Certain brands of imported ammo like S&B and Fiocchi are loaded to CIP specifications. CIP is, essentially, the European version of SAAMI (though some South American countries are also member nations of CIP). While SAAMI and CIP spec don't line up exactly for every cartridge, they're generally considered close enough for SAAMI and CIP spec ammunition to be safely used interchangeably. For .38 Special, however, CIP's max pressure is 22,000 psi which is greater than even SAAMI's 20,000 psi limit for .38 Spl +P (CIP does not recognize any +P designations).

As to the OP's question, one should not attempt to load .38 +P ammunition with component combinations for which there is no published .38 +P data. This is because, while the max load data for a particular powder may only be at or below standard pressure limits, pressure increases are not necessarily linear and, depending on the combination of components a small increase in powder charge can cause a large increase in pressure. The primary reason that it's best practice to stay within loading data published by powder and bullet makers like Hodgdon, Alliant, Speer, Hornady, Sierra, and Lyman is that data from these sources has been pressure tested with equipment that the average reloader doesn't have access to. Once you go beyond the maximum published load for a given component combination, the only thing you really know for certain is that your cartridge is generating more pressure than the max load, but you have no way to know how much more. If you want to load .38 Special +P ammunition, then you need to stick to component combinations for which there is published .38 Spl +P data.
 
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