38 special lswchp +P- myth or reality?

A

ATTICUS

New member
This has been bugging me for the last week or so. This .38 load seems to be everyones favorite here at TFL and yet I can't find it anywhere (including on the net). Gun store clerks look at me like I'm insane when I ask for it (of course it takes a full 15 seconds to even say "You got any Remington thirty eight special lead semi wadcutter hollow point plus pee" - and their attention drifts at that point.
I've read numerous posts here at TFL about it being made by Winchester, Federal and Remington, yet I don't see it at their websites (nor at Corbon, S&B, Aguila, or anywhere else). Supposedly, Natchez- Cheaper than Dirt- Keisler's, etc, carry it. Nuh uh.... not that I can find. I bought the closest thing I could find today- some Winchester LSWC+P's. Maybe I'll just get out my drill and turn them into hollow points myself....nah. Seriously, where the heck do you find them.
 
+P- ??

What, what the first + giveth, the minus taketh away? :)

Yeah, it's out there, but because it's +P+ it's not generally sold in civilian circles. It's generally an LEO type round. Never know who's going to get this ammo and drop it into an 80 year old .38 HE M&P 5th Model... Can you say BOOM?
 
The Winchester version really is easy to find. Call them "lead hollowpoints", most better gun dealers will have 'em. There's certain to be some at any gun show. They have a "wadcutter" profile, will be marked +P, plain uncoated/jacked lead. White box, last time I bought some.

The Federal (Nyclad) version is going to be exceedingly rare. Which isn't a problem, in my mind, I'm not fond of that variant.

The Remington is the one I want to find. But it's not THAT much better than the Winchesters.
 
The Winchester .38 LSWCHP +P was the standard FBI load for their 38 revolvers.

It is definitely NOT +P+ and it is not LE only. E-mail Winchester for a dealer in your area that stocks this load.

When I had to carry a .38, this load was my first choice.
 
Atticus kiesleronline does carry this load I juat bought some this week it was $8.95 a box for 50 rounds plus shipping. It is also know as the semi wadcutter hollow point btw the number on the box is X38spd.

It is the best load imho for the .38 espacialy the snub nosed guns and it does even better out of a 4 inch tube. But if you have a 4in. .38 you may just get along with regular jhp's I hear they work well in these guns but I still would go for the lswc-hp as my first choice.
 
AH! OK. Sorry, I thought you were trying to find +P+.

Your best bet may be gunshows. I've seen it at several gunshows in Northern Virginia over the eyars.
 
As mentioned, Kiesler on line has it (at a very good price). Natchez also has it:
WNX38SPD
In Stock

Brand: Winchester Ammo
WIN 38SP +P 158GR HP SWC
Sale! $14.69
Reg. Price: 17.45
Click to expand...
So does Ammo Bank:
PISTOL WINCHESTER :X38SPD WIN .38 Spl+P SWLHP .38 Special+P 50 158gr 20.37 [Details]
PISTOL REMINGTON :R38S12 REM .38 Spl+P SWHPL .38 Special+P 50 158gr 21.11
Click to expand...
 
I am partial to the nyclad version and it is becoming extinct. They are discontinuing(sp) it. I found a great ammo source for specialty ammo on the net at www.ammobank.com I still love ammoman.com though
 
J.C. : I went back to the Kiesler website and it is listed in the ammo specials section (the very last item) for $8.95. Ordered a few. I'm assuming that this bullet is the SWC profile (as someone stated previously).

Thanks everyone. It's always good to add a few new links to the bookmarks.
 
Check out the current, "Handloader" for an excellent story on loading the .38 Special by Brian Pearce. It includes some factory loads that he chronographed from a K-38. The lead HP's from Remington and Winchester both clocked well above the stated 890 FPS, so they probably do chronograph it from a 4-inch vented bbl. at the factories. (K-38 has a six-incher.)

Mr. Pearce also lists some good handloads at non-Plus P pressures, and says that they will still expand the bullet quite well. He logically notes that jacketed bullets make very limited sense in .38 loads.

Lone Star
 
Some more ancient history - - -

When I first saw this load--The Winchester--in the early '70s, it was listed as a "High Speed" load. Standard velocity .38 Spl RNL, from most manufacturers at the time was shown as 855 fps, from a six-inch fixture barrel. In those pre-Plus-P days, the High Speed or .38/44 load was rated at 1060 fps.

Dallas County Crime Lab chrono'd some of these at over 900 in four-inch service revolvers. Recovered bullets from actual shootings showed good expansion in two-inch guns, and better in four-inchers, naturally. And I've seen a couple of blood bullets shot from six-inch revos which were rolled back almost to the base.

Win later reduced velocity, at least in some of 'em. Remington kept somewhat higher velocities, but I doubt you'd see 1060 in either W-W or R-P today. I never had any experience with the Federal version of this load.

Another recent discussion of this type load may be found at - -

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117191

Best,
Johnny
 
One more point of potential interest. My Dad was an FBI Special Agent in the mid-'40s and early-'50s. He also was the New York Field Office's lead firearms instructor. He repeatedly told me two facts that seem to reoccur regularly as TFL questions:
> The Bureau's standard sidearm was a ".38 on a .44 frame" (i. e., a .38 Special "N" Frame Smith) with a four-inch barrel. Further, individual agents had very wide latitude in carrying other sidearms, which ranged from 1911A1s, to snub-nosed Colts and Smiths, to small caliber semiautomatics (such as the Colt, hammerless, government .380 ACP).
> The standard load for the .38 on the .44 frame was a "hot" (+P) 158 grain, lead SWC. Due to the softness of the lead bullet, this round tended to expand voraciously, in an era when hollow points were not generally produced.
Hope this information helps.
 
For Jim March . . .

Jim,

Your comment above is rather negative re Federal Nyclads. I value your opinions greatly and would like to learn why you feel Nyclads are not first-rate. This is particularly important, since I recently switched my 27-2 (5") and KGP-141 (4") carry loads from 158 grain .357 magnum HydraShoks to 125 grain .38 Special +P Nyclads.

Thanks and best regards -- Roy
 
Two reasons:

While the 125 Nyclad had a good rep for expansion, the 158 didn't...sorry, it's been too many years so I can't quote sources. I have however seen both cavities and the 158 cavity is too "filled in by the plastic" for my tastes. Compare with the cavity on a Winchester or Remington 158 LSWC-HP.

Second, I've seen some fairly negative things about velocity in various Federal loadings. Example: they marketed a 110grain JHP .38Spl Hydrashock "Personal Defense" critter as a "snubbie solution" - velocity testing by firearmstactical.com showed the stuff pulling under 800fps from an S&W 60. That's just bad! Not the only example I'm aware of, either...Federal sometimes wimps out on the powder charge. NOT always, but often enough that, given the reliability of the "plain ol' lead" variants, I'd just as soon not bother with the Nyclad 158.

Do I *know* it's a problem? No! But I'm experiencing what the computer biz calls "FUD factor" - fear, uncertainty, doubt. It's up to Federal to solve that, by having an independant test lab publish hard data (velocity, expansion, test medium) in real-world guns, including snubs.

If they don't want to do that, and I have less FUD from other vendors because the plain lead versions are a "known product" across years, then I follow the lack of FUD.

I hope this is a clear enough answer. Realize that I'm NOT claiming to "have all the answers here"...it's more about what I *don't* know.
 
Gary-

Sorry I missed your question; just got back to this thread.
"Handloader" is the companion title to, "The Rifle", published by Wolfe Pub. Co., 6471 Airpark Dr., Prescott, AZ 83601. Both are first rate magazines, slanted to appeal largely to the serious enthusiast, rather than running the same old stuff, as do some of the more common titles. (From what I see here, I guess we shouldn't assume that everyone has read all of the "traditional" topics at least several times already.) The Wolfe titles are bi-monthly. Their phone: (520) 445-7810.

By the way, both the Remington and Winchester .38 lead HP's tested by Pearce in his K-38 ran about 1085 FPS, varying by only a few feet per second. Keep in mind that a K-38 has a six-inch bbl.

Pearce also fired many loads in both a three-inch Chief Special and a Colt SAA with 5.5 inch bbl., but didn't print the velocities.

I talked today with a Winchester rep and he assured me that the firm definitly still makes the SPD lead HP round. I mention this, because it doesn't appear when one checks the ammo section at Winchester (USRAC's) Website. Apparently an error...

Federal's equivalent usually has had velocities at least on par with the other brands when writers have printed tests over the years. Actually, Remington tends to run slower than the other two major brands. I'd think that Speer might have the hottest, but all seem to routinely clock about 925 FPS from a four-inch gun.
Three-inchers turn in some 850 FPS or better; snubs run some 750-825 FPS, based on the gun or the ammo lot and brand.
The Winchester guy told me that about 95% of current law enforcement use of this round (.38, generally) occurs in snubs.

Lone Star
 
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