.38 Special, HBWC: full wadcutter Bullseye loads

S

Sevens

New member
Hey guys, let's hear some chatter about the classic swaged lead hollow base wadcutter load for Bullseye competition. This is a totally new project to me and I am READY to jump in.

No, I won't be competing in Bullseye (although that would be a blast and an honor, I haven't the time or friendly schedule and I don't know who/where anywhere near me) The reason for this new project is that I finally fulfilled a quest and brought home a gorgeous Smith & Wesson Model 52 ".38 Master" and I am on cloud 9! :cool:

To get my feet wet, I grabbed a single 500ct box of "Star" brand 148gr swaged HBWC at a gun shop near the gun show where I found the Model 52. These slugs were most likely produced at or around the time of the pistol itself (haha!) and they are -OLD- but appear to be 100% up to the task.

I have already cooked some loads running 2.8gr Alliant Bullseye and the Model 52 is 100% ready, willing and able to feed, chamber, extract and eject these fully when running the pistol by hand. I hope to take first live fire shots on Thanksgiving.

Please add your:
--ideas on loading techniques or roadblocks
--thoughts, questions, experiences
--hopes, dreams, plans, wish lists!
--old stories of other guys & interesting tales
--sources for 148gr swaged lead HBWC slugs
...all on the subject of the full wadcutter target round.

Also, if you have genuine experience on the historic and amazing Smith & Wesson Model 52, please share that as well.
 
First, congratulations on your Smith 52 find. They are something like finding the mother lode these days. What I'd give to go back to '84 (when I first started shooting/loading/collecting guns) and grab one (at the time, I thought they were pure silliness). Living in California only makes them ten times harder to find.

But I digress . . .

The irony - I love target shooting and competitive shooting with my revolvers. It would seem this thread is right up my alley. But, I load and shoot a lot of DEWC's - not HBLWC's. I have loaded them. With Bullseye - 2.8 grains, if memory serves. And they're great - super accurate and cut a nice hole in paper. And the only reason why I don't load HBLWC's these days, is because they don't speedload well. Since they're (normally, and as-designed) seated completely flush with the case mouth, they tend to hang up when it comes time to charge the holes quickly in competition. DEWC's sit up above the mouth just a little bit, and that's just enough to go in much more smoothly - like night n day, actually.

Anyway, I felt compelled to chime in Sevens, but didn't really have a lot to contribute :(

I do know that you can't hardly go wrong with Bullseye as your propellant. Assuming you keep your guns clean; and I have little doubt you do.
 
You should be good to go. 2.7 grains of Bullseye is a classic WC load, but some use up to 3.0 grains, and you are right in that range. With the semi-auto I've heard you can smooth feed up a little bit by getting the wadcutter completely flush with the case mouth and using a slight roll crimp to give you a harder rounded edge, but I've never owned a '52 to confirm this. When I started shooting conventional pistol matches back in the late '70's, the trend was already for everyone to save their money and use the 1911 in both the centerfire and .45 phases of the match.

One thing I can tell you about .38 wadcutters that may or may not fit your schedule is that the Star bullets (I got in on a bulk purchase of them in .452", 185 grains for gallery loads once) are as soft as any swaged bullet might be expected to be. I did some shooting from my K-38 comparing commercial match ammo once and found none of it to shoot great from that gun. But I also bought a 6-cavity mold from Lee for their tumble lube wadcutter, and when I ran those through the same gun, loaded as-cast (no sizing) the group diameter were cut in half. So even if you don't cast your own, you might want to try a reputable brand of cast wadcutter, just in case your gun likes them better. YMMV.
 
"...DEWC's - not HBLWC's..." Difference is pretty much that DEWC's are cast and HBWC's are swaged. Swaged means they're softer, being made literally out of soft lead wire, but tend to be more accurate. Same thing otherwise.
As I recall, 52's(Way beyond my budget range.) are particular about OAL. Nothing really weird though. Load the HBWC flush with the case mouth, NO CRIMP, and you'll be fine.
You will need to work up the load though. 2.8 is close to, but isn't absolutely the be all .38 target load. 2.5 to 2.8 of Bullseye with the 148 WC.
 
I also use the DEWC over 2.6 grains of Bullseye. This been been my favorite .38 Special load for decades.
 
Difference is pretty much that DEWC's are cast and HBWC's are swaged.
Click to expand...

Not exactly. Most of the swaged bullet makers have offered both HBWC and DEWC in swaged form at one time or another. The DE's have just fallen out of fashion with them, though Magnus Bullets still offers both in a swaged construction. The DE ones were for some kinds of early automatic loading equipment that wasn't designed to discern one end from the other of a hollow base bullet.

It is true that cast bullets are usually DEWC both because of the difficulty in molding a hollow base consistently symmetrical and centered, though not impossible, and also because a hollow base in a harder material, as is usually used to cast, serves no purpose. The reason for it in a soft swaged lead hollow base is so the skirt can blow out and obturate the bore with a very light, low pressure charge. The downsides are that the longer bullet is not stabilized as well by slow twist rifling (the DE is better on this score just because it is shorter) and too high a powder charge can blow the skirt out with muzzle blast, ruining ballistics and accuracy.
 
The week before last, I reached a LONG way into the back of the safe and pulled out my M52-2, dug a box of wadcutters out of the clutter, and went shooting. Or attempted to. There was maybe 20 thou of lead showing above the case mouths and that was enough to bind in the magazine.

I put the .38 head on the Dillon and found the last box of Speer HBWC left over from my PPC days and loaded them up being darned careful to get the bullet, the whole bullet, and everything including the bullet below the mouth.
Things improved right away. With a roll crimp and 3.2 gr HP38 feeding was reliable and shooting was accurate.

I then loaded the last of my HBWCs, a "Can O' Lead" with bullets packaged in a paint can. I seated them for the M52, too.

But most of my use will be in IDPA Revolver. They reduced the power factor for speedloader guns so much in order to accommodate Cheapmart Econoball that midrange wadcutters are actually legal. So I load the gun with wadcutters and speed load with roundnose.
 
Oh, yeah...

We talk a lot about HBWC and DEWC but there is also the old traditional cast wadcutter in H&G #50 and Lyman #358495 which actually have front bands and crimp grooves. Meant for revolvers, of course. I think they will fit a Colt .38 Special magazine as used in the Gold Cup and Clark Conversions because it is going in a .38 Super magazine well instead of a 9mm.
 
Thanks for the response post (#6) Unclenick.

Saved me a bunch of composition time; and, you probably worded it better anyway ;)
 
Red Dot

If memory serves, back in the mid-80's, the old-timers out at the range seemed to like Red Dot for their HBLWC's (not specifically for M52's - just in general).

Since I was a go-for-broke young whippersnapper recoil junkie at the time; and didn't even see the reason for shooting those super-light wadcutter thingies. So I didn't pay much attention to them.

Wish I had.
 
Great replies, guys! So far, the only bullet I have on hand that will work is this single 500-ct box of Star, these are definitely the swaged HBWC and they sure look good for bullets that were probably packaged up when either Carter or Reagan was in the White House. ;)

One roadblock I do face on my scheduled trip to nirvana is that for the type of shooting this pistol was BORN to do (punching tiny groups or simply the X-ring on a paper target), my best place to do that is on the indoor range closest to me. Which is a problem because they... like most indoor haunts these days... prohibit lead bullets. Plated or jacketed only (although they don't care what your rimfire ammo is...)

I have some glimmer of hope that I can pull management aside in hushed tones... show them the pure MAGIC of this incredible pistol and share my dilemma and throw myself on the mercy of the court. :p And I will offer shots to them to seal the deal. :D Meanwhile, my first loads will hopefully feed, chamber, fire, extract and eject nicely, outdoors, in the medium-COLD on Thursday.

Berry's and Xtreme both offer a fully plated wadcutter bullet and that is an option that I have considered exploring -- but I have an issue with that. Being copper plated, there is no way that the same classic charge of Bullseye will give the same results. Berry's even goes as far to say nearly exactly that RIGHT on the page for their plated wadcutter. They suggest that you find a charge that pushes this slug to a minimum of 800 fps and they add that the typical published load target for a 148gr full wadcutter was designed around a soft lead bullet... which these ARE NOT.

You might imagine this creates a bit of a tough spot for a finely-tuned target semi-auto in that I need to balance the increased resistance of the bullet up against the limited amount of recoil energy this pistol was designed face.

Hmmm. :confused:
One thing I have in my corner is that there is NO flash gap on a pistol, so I get to use all 100% of any pressure I generate to push that bullet out, assuming the brass obturates.
 
Going from Unclenick's post, don't load a HBWC with anything other than light.

The skirt definitely will become separated and possibly stick in the barrel.

After the shot, there is not way to tell until the next shot. It will almost always bulge the barrel and virtually ruin it.

Happened to a shooting buddy back in the late 60s, and he was extremely upset.

My loading was mostly with Red Dot or Bullseye when I shot them, but I haven't shot any in quite some time. I use mostly bevel base now and again.
 
S&W M52:
Based on loading for four M52s, I would say the "rules" for really accurate loads are:
1) Don't bother with any bullet but the Remington 148gn L-HBWC. No other bullet has been as accurate or as inexpensive
2) If possible, do NOT size the cases. You do not want to swage down the bullet at all. The slide will easily chamber a round with the small amount of case expansion left by not sizing. Measure the bullet's dimensions before and after seating and adjust until there is less than 0.001" difference. Deprime only.
3) If you have to size, use a Lee .38 Spl FCD, with crimp innards removed, as your sizing die. You really don't want to do any more sizing than absolutely required.
4) If possible, only use R.P. cases. Walls are thinner and produce less bullet swaging and better accuracy.
5) If possible, use a Redding Profile Crimp die. No other die produces a roll crimp as accurate for the M52 (maybe for all other roll crimp cartridges, but definitely for the M52/.38 Wadcutter)
6) Be sure the seating stem only contacts the outer edges of the bullet's meplate (i.e., there should be a hole in the center so the seating stem "drives" the bullet's edges only).
7) Do not be afraid to use a LOT of case mouth flare. Wadcutters love to move to the size and seat crooked (if not drive themselves into the case mouth). A lot of flare will allow you to seat about 1/4 of the bullet in the case for straighter seating.
8) DO NOT EXCEED 750 FPS. AT OR SLIGHTLY OVER 800FPS YOU WILL EITHER FIND TWO HOLES IN THE TARGET FOR EVERY SHOT OR YOU'LL FIND THE SKIRT SITTING IN THE BARREL AS A BARREL OBSTRUCTION AND THE NEXT SHOT WILL BULGE THE BARREL.
9) The case ID after case expansion REALLY REALLY needs to be 0.001-0.002" smaller than the bullet's largest diameter (often at the skirt).
10) Any fast powder will work, but Red Dot, Bullseye, and AA2 have been the best I have found after about 37 years.
11) From my experience, about the best you'll get with a plated wadcutter is 3" groups at 10 yards, whereas my Rem. L-HBWCs are good for <1.5" at 25 yds and, often, <2" at 50 yds.
 
Whoa, lots there.

What about primers?
And you suggest the R-P bullet is the best AND cheapest... what is a good source for buying the R-P bullet?
 
I benched and shot the best 10 shot group of my life this past weekend.
Speer 148 hbwc in front of 3.8gr of Unique. 1.25" at 25yds. out of my model 14-3. I was very surprised using that slow of a powder.
 
Don't bother with any bullet but the Remington 148gn L-HBWC.
Click to expand...

I've used these. They're very accurate shooters. I was quite pleased with them. A little messy because they're pretty much covered in a waxy dry lube. But that's a small thing. I did notice that the lube tends to build up on the seater and each bullet seats ever so slightly deeper than the previous. So you gotta clean up the seater from time to time - or re-adjust it.
 
Not R.P., just Remington.
R.P. for cases.
They are covered in a lube that seems to be petrolatum and graphite.
I don't know why any one worries about "messy," as accurate trumps everything and I haven't noticed them being any where near as messy as folks talk about. I get no build-up in the seating die and only have to wipe off my left thumb and index finger, and it isn't worse than most other lead bullets.
Check out MidwayUSA for them.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...diameter-148-grain-lead-hollow-base-wadcutter
 
Ahhh, things to be thankful for, on this fine holiday! :D
A full 6.25 hour range day at my club, 95% empty all day except me & my buddy, incredible weather, a bevy of fantastic handguns and especially, for the 150 flawless rounds through my new-to-me Smith & Wesson Model 52-2!

Apparently, my 2.8gr of Bullseye under these very old 148gr Star swaged hollow-base wadcutter bullets are exactly what this phenomenal pistol loves on the menu!

What an amazing handgun. What pure pleasure when the handgun does what you ask for it to do, leaving you no doubt as to what happened when the "rubber met the road." No excuses, no alibis, you do your part and it delivers. 1.5" groups on paper at 13 yards, outdoors with varying sunlight and breeze, and a standing two-hand hold, slow fire. And this... in my first ever shooting with this (or any) Model 52, with ammo I have never made before... using bullets made when I was a teenager at the latest, and likely earlier. And the pistol ran so beautifully that "finicky" and "persnickity" don't appear to be in it's vocabulary.

I am one happy dude this evening. :D And whupped, too. Whew. 7 handguns, somewhere around 750 rounds down range. I didn't have any turkey today, and I'm okay with that.
 
Glad to hear you had a great range day. M52's are neat.

I haven't shot in over two weeks - by far, the longest this year. We're doing thx-giving dinner tomorrow; so maybe Saturday I'll get out.
 
That load is great! My favorite is 2.7 grains Bullseye under a 148 grain wad cutter. I've shot thousands through my Model 19 in the 30 years+ I've owned the gun and it is just a beauty of a load for punching holes & plinking!

But alas, the wadcutters will not feed reliably through my Henry .357 lever and I need to find another. First round of an unmarked, apparently 125 grain round nose showed promise, but I encountered other issues enumerated in the "General Discussion" portion of "The Firing Line" under a thread title "Be always aware". Maybe if I find a good 125 grain wadcutter?
 
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