You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
.38 spcl compared to 380
- Thread starter rmocarsky
- Start date
LockedBreech
New member
In general, the .38 Special, particularly loaded to +p pressures, is the superior load, speaking purely in ballistic terms. For a point of argument, though, the .380 makes up a lot of ground in being a notably smaller cartridge dimensionally. While the .38 Special provides a ballistic improvement, my Ruger LCP .380 carries significantly easier than my Colt Detective Special .38 Spc. It is lighter, smoother, and has a higher capacity. More modern .38 Spc. revolvers like the Smith & Wesson 637, 638, or 642, or the Ruger LCR, are more apples-to-apples competitors, but even the smallest .38 Specials will not carry quite as easily as the smallest .380 automatic pistols. In addition, it is easier to carry extra ammo for the .380 pistols. Carrying 13 rounds total with my LCP is a breeze compared to carrying 12 with the DS.
However, this is (and this is not fault of yours, but rather of the popularity of the cartridges) a bit too broad a question when you consider the wide variety of loads available for both calibers, particularly for .38 Special. Some of the softer standard pressure loads in .38 Special such as the Federal Hydra-Shok Low Recoil, are relatively light and relatively low-velocity compared to, say, the .380 +p load available from Buffalo Bore. Buffalo Bore's strong .38 Special +p loads, though, knock anything chambered in .380 out of the park.
Speaking very, very generally, .38 Special is about 10-20% more powerful.
I have provided, for your convenience, some comparative ballistics. I have not provided the energy each of these loads produces, since I believe energy is largely incidental in ballistics and sometimes high-energy loads have lower effectiveness compared to lower-energy loads that are more smartly designed. Others take the opposite view - that energy plays a critical role - and they are certainly welcome to post those views. I tend to take a more simple view: the combination of weight and velocity to carry that weight to vital organs is what matters.
From ATK/Speer @ http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx:
Speer Gold Dot .380 Auto: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1040 FPS muzzle velocity
Speer Gold Dot .38 Special (+p): Fires a 125-grain projectile at 945 FPS muzzle velocity
From ATK/Federal @ http://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun.aspx:
Federal Hydra-Shok .380 Auto: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
Federal Hydra-Shok .38 Special Personal Defense Low Recoil: Fires a 110-grain projectile at 980 FPS velocity
Federal Hydra-Shok .38 Special (+p): Fires a 129-grain projectile at 950 FPS velocity
For what it's worth, in my .380 I carry Remington's Golden Saber, which fires a 102-grain projectile at 940 FPS. Their .38 Special +p load fires a 125-grain projectile at 975 FPS muzzle velocity (from http://www.remington.com/comparison.aspx)
In my Colt Detective Special, I carry standard pressure rounds due to the older, 1968 D-Frame of the revolver. I carry the Buffalo Bore, which fires a 158-grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoint (LSWC-HP) at 850 FPS muzzle velocity. They have a wide variety of .38 Special and .380 Auto loads in both standard pressure and +p, so visit the website at https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=1
Both cartridges are considered at the low margin of "acceptable carry calibers". whatever that means. This is very subjective and merely an opinion of mine shared by many. Plenty of people carry .32 ACP, .25 ACP, and even .22LR and feel comfortable doing so.
Both cartridges are also exceedingly popular. so my examples here are a tiny fraction of the loads available.
For excellent reviews of defensive handgun rounds, tnoutdoors9 does superb backyard gel ballistics tests on his YouTube channel
I hope this has been of some help to you. For your convenience, I have provided a random smattering of additional .380 and .38 Special loads for your comparison. I used www.midwayusa.com for the following ballistics rather than the manufacturer websites
A few (standard pressure) .380 Auto loads:
Hornady Critical Defense: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
Winchester PDX1: Fires a 95-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
Cor-Bon DPX: Fires an 80-grain projectile at 1050 FPS muzzle velocity
A few (+p) .380 Auto loads:
Buffalo Bore Barnes TAC-XP: Fires an 80-grain projectile at 1275 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore standard JHP (I think they use Montana Gold bullets these days): Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1200 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore standard JHP: Fires a 95-grain projectile at 1125 FPS muzzle velocity
A few (standard pressure) .38 Special loads
Hornady Critical Defense: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1200 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore Wadcutter: Fires a 150-grain projectile at 850 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore Barnes TAC-XP: Fires a 110-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
A few (+p) .38 Special loads
Hornady Critical Defense: Fire a 110-grain projectile at 1090 FPS muzzle velocity
Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel: Fires a 135-grain projectile at 860 FPS muzzle velocity
Winchester PDX1: Fires a 130-grain projectile at 950 FPS muzzle velocity
Doubletap JHP: Fires a 125-grain projectile at 1175 muzzle velocity
However, this is (and this is not fault of yours, but rather of the popularity of the cartridges) a bit too broad a question when you consider the wide variety of loads available for both calibers, particularly for .38 Special. Some of the softer standard pressure loads in .38 Special such as the Federal Hydra-Shok Low Recoil, are relatively light and relatively low-velocity compared to, say, the .380 +p load available from Buffalo Bore. Buffalo Bore's strong .38 Special +p loads, though, knock anything chambered in .380 out of the park.
Speaking very, very generally, .38 Special is about 10-20% more powerful.
I have provided, for your convenience, some comparative ballistics. I have not provided the energy each of these loads produces, since I believe energy is largely incidental in ballistics and sometimes high-energy loads have lower effectiveness compared to lower-energy loads that are more smartly designed. Others take the opposite view - that energy plays a critical role - and they are certainly welcome to post those views. I tend to take a more simple view: the combination of weight and velocity to carry that weight to vital organs is what matters.
From ATK/Speer @ http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx:
Speer Gold Dot .380 Auto: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1040 FPS muzzle velocity
Speer Gold Dot .38 Special (+p): Fires a 125-grain projectile at 945 FPS muzzle velocity
From ATK/Federal @ http://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun.aspx:
Federal Hydra-Shok .380 Auto: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
Federal Hydra-Shok .38 Special Personal Defense Low Recoil: Fires a 110-grain projectile at 980 FPS velocity
Federal Hydra-Shok .38 Special (+p): Fires a 129-grain projectile at 950 FPS velocity
For what it's worth, in my .380 I carry Remington's Golden Saber, which fires a 102-grain projectile at 940 FPS. Their .38 Special +p load fires a 125-grain projectile at 975 FPS muzzle velocity (from http://www.remington.com/comparison.aspx)
In my Colt Detective Special, I carry standard pressure rounds due to the older, 1968 D-Frame of the revolver. I carry the Buffalo Bore, which fires a 158-grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoint (LSWC-HP) at 850 FPS muzzle velocity. They have a wide variety of .38 Special and .380 Auto loads in both standard pressure and +p, so visit the website at https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=1
Both cartridges are considered at the low margin of "acceptable carry calibers". whatever that means. This is very subjective and merely an opinion of mine shared by many. Plenty of people carry .32 ACP, .25 ACP, and even .22LR and feel comfortable doing so.
Both cartridges are also exceedingly popular. so my examples here are a tiny fraction of the loads available.
For excellent reviews of defensive handgun rounds, tnoutdoors9 does superb backyard gel ballistics tests on his YouTube channel
I hope this has been of some help to you. For your convenience, I have provided a random smattering of additional .380 and .38 Special loads for your comparison. I used www.midwayusa.com for the following ballistics rather than the manufacturer websites
A few (standard pressure) .380 Auto loads:
Hornady Critical Defense: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
Winchester PDX1: Fires a 95-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
Cor-Bon DPX: Fires an 80-grain projectile at 1050 FPS muzzle velocity
A few (+p) .380 Auto loads:
Buffalo Bore Barnes TAC-XP: Fires an 80-grain projectile at 1275 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore standard JHP (I think they use Montana Gold bullets these days): Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1200 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore standard JHP: Fires a 95-grain projectile at 1125 FPS muzzle velocity
A few (standard pressure) .38 Special loads
Hornady Critical Defense: Fires a 90-grain projectile at 1200 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore Wadcutter: Fires a 150-grain projectile at 850 FPS muzzle velocity
Buffalo Bore Barnes TAC-XP: Fires a 110-grain projectile at 1000 FPS muzzle velocity
A few (+p) .38 Special loads
Hornady Critical Defense: Fire a 110-grain projectile at 1090 FPS muzzle velocity
Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel: Fires a 135-grain projectile at 860 FPS muzzle velocity
Winchester PDX1: Fires a 130-grain projectile at 950 FPS muzzle velocity
Doubletap JHP: Fires a 125-grain projectile at 1175 muzzle velocity
Last edited:
LockedBreech
New member
Happy to help, good shooting
PointOneSeven
New member
Yeah, I was going to say the bullets themselves are around 50% heavier to start with on the 38 specials. If the rounds are going roughly the same speed (and they do pretty much for those calibers and barrel lengths), the .38 is going to hit harder ft-poundage-wise.
Dragline45
New member
In the past year or so I dropped my .38 special S&W 640 and 60 in my carry rotation for a Sig 232 in .380. I could not justify continuing to carry the J frames when I shot the 232 so much better, I mean leaps and bounds better. Throw in the fact that the Sig carries 3 extra rounds and the ability to reload alot faster and it was a no brainer. 3 rounds may not be a huge difference, but when you only have 5 that extra 3 is pretty big.
The two .38+p loads I carried were Remington Golden Sabers and Speer Gold Dots. Looking at these numbers I can absolutely not justify the .38+p with a 125gr round being that much more effective than a 102gr .380, especially when I shoot the .380 I have far better. Also keep in mind that the snubs had a barrel length of 1 7/8 inches, the muzzle velocity you see posted will be lower out of the snubs. My Sig has a barrel length of 3.6 inches. A 22gr difference in bullet weight and 30fps difference in velocity is such a marginal difference that I don't think one is particularly more effective than the other. The rounds are so close that it really comes down to which one do you shoot better. Sure they have 158gr .38 specials, but with use of hollow points you are alot less likely to get reliable expansion compared to 125gr round.
Remington Golden Saber .38+p 125gr
Muzzle velocity: 975 fps
Muzzle energy: 264 ft/lb
Speer Gold Dots .38+p 125gr
Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
Muzzle Energy: 248 ft/lb
Remington Golden Saber .380 102gr
Muzzle Velocity: 940 fps
Muzzle Energy: 200 ft. lbs.
The two .38+p loads I carried were Remington Golden Sabers and Speer Gold Dots. Looking at these numbers I can absolutely not justify the .38+p with a 125gr round being that much more effective than a 102gr .380, especially when I shoot the .380 I have far better. Also keep in mind that the snubs had a barrel length of 1 7/8 inches, the muzzle velocity you see posted will be lower out of the snubs. My Sig has a barrel length of 3.6 inches. A 22gr difference in bullet weight and 30fps difference in velocity is such a marginal difference that I don't think one is particularly more effective than the other. The rounds are so close that it really comes down to which one do you shoot better. Sure they have 158gr .38 specials, but with use of hollow points you are alot less likely to get reliable expansion compared to 125gr round.
Remington Golden Saber .38+p 125gr
Muzzle velocity: 975 fps
Muzzle energy: 264 ft/lb
Speer Gold Dots .38+p 125gr
Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
Muzzle Energy: 248 ft/lb
Remington Golden Saber .380 102gr
Muzzle Velocity: 940 fps
Muzzle Energy: 200 ft. lbs.
Last edited:
i like a lot of penetration cause i would want the bullet to hit the spine. people aren't made of jell. so im thinking a slower and heaver 100 gr. fmj .380 will tend to flip and cause a nice wound channel while penetrating almost 18 inches. will this happen all the time like in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqBSz1oRiN0&list=PL0k8IScA_ejxlCBe--592O2qm4OwQnOt0&index=8
im thinking about the s&w bodyguard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqBSz1oRiN0&list=PL0k8IScA_ejxlCBe--592O2qm4OwQnOt0&index=8
im thinking about the s&w bodyguard.
If restricted to factory ammo, in my opinion (note that I am clearly stating this is only opinion) the 38 Special is slightly more powerful. With specialty loads or handloads that push the envelope a bit the 38 Special is noticeably more powerful.
A mainstream 125 JHP +P will go around 900 FPS from a 2" revolver. A 90 JHP from a good 380 ACP load will do around 1000. A bit more velocity but less mass. If you push that 125 to 1100 then we have a new ball game.
My usual carry is an ultra compact 380 for comfort. I would prefer something with a little more zest but comfortable carry comes first otherwise the power is useless because I won't be carrying it.
I doubt your average felon could tell the difference when shot with either.
A mainstream 125 JHP +P will go around 900 FPS from a 2" revolver. A 90 JHP from a good 380 ACP load will do around 1000. A bit more velocity but less mass. If you push that 125 to 1100 then we have a new ball game.
My usual carry is an ultra compact 380 for comfort. I would prefer something with a little more zest but comfortable carry comes first otherwise the power is useless because I won't be carrying it.
I doubt your average felon could tell the difference when shot with either.
Dragline45
New member
I would personally choose .380 over .38sp for the simple reason is my old pre 36 will not handle +p.
Actually your 36 will handle +P rounds, the only reason it wasn't marked +P is because the +P designation just did not exist back then. If you don't take my word for it call S&W and they will confirm +P is fine to use in your 36. My old 640 and 60, both .38 special versions NOT .357, are not marked +P and have had plenty of +P rounds through them with no ill effect.
spacecoast
New member
Don't neglect the heavier bullets in the .38 special. The Remington R38S12 has a soft lead 158 gr. bullet and will usually mushroom even from a snubby.
Ah, the modern age, when (some) small auto pistol rounds (.380 & 9mm) are loaded to levels they never had before, and (some) revolver rounds are left where they used to be, or even loaded lighter(.38SPl & .357 Magnum)..
I'm not going to dispute any one's numbers, but I think it worth mentioning that along with the best ammo numbers, you ought to also consider the worst ammo numbers. OR at least the "standard" loads. Factory ball ammo for the .380acp is a 95gr @955fps and .38 SPL is a 158gr @ 850 (vel approx) A bullet slightly more than half again heavier, is approx 100fps less has a different terminal performance than the change in vel/energy numbers alone suggest. Is it enough to be significant to you? That's something for you to decide.
If you are not a handloader, then you are limited to what is on the shelf when you go to buy. And these days, there is no guarantee that the good, most effective loads, are going to be there when you are. Plus there is the price.
Once you decide on, and acquire your defense ammo, (and how much are you going to need?) then there are other issues to be resolved, before you should count on either caliber & gun.
For the revolver, its fairly easy, you fire a couple of cylinders, noting any change in the point of impact from previous loads. THen its just a matter of practice. And practice might be sucessfully done with a cheaper round that has the same point of impact.
With the auto pistol, you have an additional issue of functioning. Standard advice for generations has been to run at least a box, and usually 100 rnds (or more, depending on who's advising) of the chosen load through the auto pistol, and having flawless functioning, before trusting your life to the gun and load's reliability.
Once upon a time, that wasn't all that much, but today, we are buying hi performance ammo in those teeny 20rnd boxes and paying $30+. Might not be an issue for you, but it is for some of us.
Also note that using velocity data from the shortest barrels, while reasonable when comparing guns of the same size, is a measure of the gun & ammo performance, and not just a measure of the cartridges used. A .38spl, with a 158gr bullet out of a 6" revolver is a different beast than a 110gr out of a snub nose. OR a 200gr from the same snubby.
Either one, with good ammo will deliver about the same, provided you do your job. The .38Spl has an edge, in my view, as a cartridge. IN a pocket gun & ammo combination, not quite so much. .380 autos are small, flat, and hold more rounds than a .38 snub. Does this make a difference to you? It might.
Some people can shoot snub revolvers tolerably well, others can't, without extensive practice. Others have the same problem with small autos. If you don't, its all good. If you do have more trouble with one than the other, then unless/until you can devote the time and money to improving your skills, then you ought to choose the one you use best, right now.
Another consideration for some people is who else might have a need to use the gun. If your SO is going to have the gun available for defense, they also need to be able to use it.
The revolver is simpler to use, and easier for many to operate. For an example, a small woman may not have the strength in her hands to rack the slide on a pocket auto. I have personally seen this on several occasions. It can be overcome with trainging and desire, but simply telling, or showing a non-shooter how the gun works doesn't mean they can work it when/if the time comes that the really need it. Actual physical practice is required! A revolver doesn't have a safety to be worked, or a slide to be racked, or a magazine that has to be fully seated. And in the rare case of a round not working, is usually easier to get back into action. (yes, I know that revolvers can fail, and fail in such a way to tie up the gun, but that is a very rare event, and can be discussed elsewhere)
Now, none of this my apply to your situation, but it does apply to a lot of people.
As a reloader, I rate the .38 SPL as the much better round, being more versatile, and being available in a broad range of guns. The .380 is good enough at what it does to have been considered the minimum serious self defense caliber for a couple of generations now, and that was before we got the improved ammo you can (sometimes) buy today.
I'm not going to dispute any one's numbers, but I think it worth mentioning that along with the best ammo numbers, you ought to also consider the worst ammo numbers. OR at least the "standard" loads. Factory ball ammo for the .380acp is a 95gr @955fps and .38 SPL is a 158gr @ 850 (vel approx) A bullet slightly more than half again heavier, is approx 100fps less has a different terminal performance than the change in vel/energy numbers alone suggest. Is it enough to be significant to you? That's something for you to decide.
If you are not a handloader, then you are limited to what is on the shelf when you go to buy. And these days, there is no guarantee that the good, most effective loads, are going to be there when you are. Plus there is the price.
Once you decide on, and acquire your defense ammo, (and how much are you going to need?) then there are other issues to be resolved, before you should count on either caliber & gun.
For the revolver, its fairly easy, you fire a couple of cylinders, noting any change in the point of impact from previous loads. THen its just a matter of practice. And practice might be sucessfully done with a cheaper round that has the same point of impact.
With the auto pistol, you have an additional issue of functioning. Standard advice for generations has been to run at least a box, and usually 100 rnds (or more, depending on who's advising) of the chosen load through the auto pistol, and having flawless functioning, before trusting your life to the gun and load's reliability.
Once upon a time, that wasn't all that much, but today, we are buying hi performance ammo in those teeny 20rnd boxes and paying $30+. Might not be an issue for you, but it is for some of us.
Also note that using velocity data from the shortest barrels, while reasonable when comparing guns of the same size, is a measure of the gun & ammo performance, and not just a measure of the cartridges used. A .38spl, with a 158gr bullet out of a 6" revolver is a different beast than a 110gr out of a snub nose. OR a 200gr from the same snubby.
Either one, with good ammo will deliver about the same, provided you do your job. The .38Spl has an edge, in my view, as a cartridge. IN a pocket gun & ammo combination, not quite so much. .380 autos are small, flat, and hold more rounds than a .38 snub. Does this make a difference to you? It might.
Some people can shoot snub revolvers tolerably well, others can't, without extensive practice. Others have the same problem with small autos. If you don't, its all good. If you do have more trouble with one than the other, then unless/until you can devote the time and money to improving your skills, then you ought to choose the one you use best, right now.
Another consideration for some people is who else might have a need to use the gun. If your SO is going to have the gun available for defense, they also need to be able to use it.
The revolver is simpler to use, and easier for many to operate. For an example, a small woman may not have the strength in her hands to rack the slide on a pocket auto. I have personally seen this on several occasions. It can be overcome with trainging and desire, but simply telling, or showing a non-shooter how the gun works doesn't mean they can work it when/if the time comes that the really need it. Actual physical practice is required! A revolver doesn't have a safety to be worked, or a slide to be racked, or a magazine that has to be fully seated. And in the rare case of a round not working, is usually easier to get back into action. (yes, I know that revolvers can fail, and fail in such a way to tie up the gun, but that is a very rare event, and can be discussed elsewhere)
Now, none of this my apply to your situation, but it does apply to a lot of people.
As a reloader, I rate the .38 SPL as the much better round, being more versatile, and being available in a broad range of guns. The .380 is good enough at what it does to have been considered the minimum serious self defense caliber for a couple of generations now, and that was before we got the improved ammo you can (sometimes) buy today.
There's an old adage in the automobile world to the effect "There's no substitute for cubic inches". I think the same rationale applies to ballistic comparisons in the world of firearms: the .380 ACP will never "measure up" to the .38 Special "ballistically", everything else being equal.
Last edited:
I carry my wife's P238 from time to time and it's loaded with the Hornaday rounds. When I carry my S&W 442, I load it with the 125gr Golden Sabers. The 442 isn't +p rated, but at a moment of truth I don't really much care.
This doesn't really answer the question, but I don't think the slight ballistic difference between the two matters much in a bad situation. The short barrels from which these are typically fired limits ballistic performance anyway. Put a couple of either where it counts and they both will do the job.
My $0.02.
This doesn't really answer the question, but I don't think the slight ballistic difference between the two matters much in a bad situation. The short barrels from which these are typically fired limits ballistic performance anyway. Put a couple of either where it counts and they both will do the job.
My $0.02.