.38 SD snub: why lswchp??

Biff Tannen

New member
Reaching out to the .38 wise men...
I've read that so many of you prefer 158 gr lswchp ammo in your snubies for SD.
Please share your wisdom as to why?
(the only stupid question is the one that goes unasked!)
Thanks!!!!!!
 
If the lead is soft, experience and ballistic testing has shown the 158 gr. LSWCHP design in +P expands decently while still penetrating adequately. The Remington round has an especially good reputation. Here are a couple of blogs about ballistic testing of the round: http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/06/remington-38-special-p-158-grain-lhp.html and http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/01/remington-38-special-p-158-grain-lhp.html. An "old school" article is here: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm

My first choice from a snubby is the Speer 135 gr +P for short barrels and my second choice is the Remington +P 158 gr. LSWCHP.
 
Back in the 60's things started getting violent with drugs and general decline in civilization.
The number of police shootings were going up and the old 1900's standard police load of a 158 grain, round nose, lead bullet started having too many "failures to stop" incidents.
It got to the point that police started calling it the "Widow maker".

After lawsuits by widows and police unions, police agencies were forced to look for a more effective load, ACLU be damned.

What was developed was the +P hotter load for the .38 Special, which was a higher pressure, higher velocity round.
Those days were before modern bullet technology was much past solid lead bullets or metal jacketed bullets which didn't expand well.
To meet the need, the 158 grain, lead, semi-wadcutter, hollow point bullet in a +P load was developed.

Virtually every police agency in America that issued .38 revolvers bought it, and it was variously known as the FBI, Chicago, St Louis, New Orleans, LAPD, ect, etc. load.
It quickly got an excellent record for stopping, and pretty well ended police complaints about failures.
Street cops called it the ".38 SPLAT" for the sound it supposedly made when it hit.

In a +P load, the 158 +P LSWHP was about as good as it got until modern bullet technology caught up and the deep penetrating, radically expanding jacketed bullets began to appear.
As long as the .38 Special was in police use, it was pretty much one of the very top loads, and due to the rather simple lead bullet, it was one of the cheapest loads available.

Even today, in a .38 Special it's a hard load to beat for effectiveness.
While most ,38 Special loads, including the +P have been gradually reduced in power over the years, it's still a good load and you can buy hotter loads that are closer to the original.
As example, Buffalo Bore Company sell a HOT near .357 Magnum .38 Special +P 158 LSWHP load.

The Buffalo Bore bullet is made of a special SOFT lead bullet which has a gas check cup on the rear which allows driving the bullet at much higher velocities and reduces leading, but still allows the FBI mandated deep penetration.
The Buffalo Bore load is about as effective as you can get in a .38 +P load, and
is closer to the old .38-44 hot loaded ammo of years ago.

What it comes down to is that there are very effective 125 grain jacketed hollow point +P ammo available today, but the 158 LSWHP is still up there near the top and is still well trusted to do the job by a lot of .38 shooters.
The ammo itself is usually cheaper than the newer complex bullet defense ammo that is so expensive, so it's cheap enough to allow practice with the same ammo you carry for business.
 
Why carry the lead SWC-HP 158gr +P....

The lead SWC HP +P 158gr load is considered accurate in most modern, high quality snub .38spl revolvers & delivers reliable expansion in most common CC type barriers(clothing, glass, wood, etc).
The "FBI" or "Chicago" load has been in wide use for many years & is still practical for most .38spl snubs. There are newer defense rounds like the MagSafe SWAT & the Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P JHP(designed in part with the NYPD for J frames).
 
One big reason to use 158s (in any shape) is that most snubby revolver sights are regulated for that bullet weight.
 
when did the first +P 38 revolvers arrive on the scene ? I didn't realize they were available that long ago ?
 
38 specials are anemic at best. The 158 grain LSWCHP +P makes the 38 special a good contender as a last ditch weapon. Any lighter at the velocity envelope of the 38 and you do not get enough penetration, any heavier and you do not have enough velocity.

There is no mystery why the 357 magnum was so popular. I carried one on the street until they took away from me kicking and screaming for a semi auto.
 
Ayoob....

In the mid 2000s, author & legal use of force expert Massad Ayoob recommended the Buffalo Bore 158gr lead SWC-HP +P for snubs/BUGs.
I purchased a 50rd box & used them off and on with my Ruger .38spl duty revolver(4" GPNY).
I wouldn't have any issue with them now.
FWIW; Buffalo Bore doesn't seem to have this defense round available as the 2000s. The Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP +P isn't bad IMO.
The Speer Gold Dot line in most handgun calibers is well respected for duty/carry.
The MagSafe & Glaser Safety Slug(Silver) have merit too.
I never used or shot any Hornady Critical Defense .38spl rounds but they get supporters too.
 
rebs asked: when did the first +P 38 revolvers arrive on the scene ? I didn't realize they were available that long ago ?

Though not designated +P the first .38 Special high velocity cartridges appeared around 1934 or so. This was long before the "+P" designation originated, and the rounds were designated ".38 Special High Velocity" or ".38-44 Special." These were either 158 gr. round nosed or metal point, lead bearing. There was also the .38 Special Hi Way Master, I believe, with a 150 gr. metal penetrating bullet. These were intended for use in the Colt New Service and the N-Framed Smiths of the day. These were the fore runners to the .357 Magnum.

Bob Wright

P.S. As I recall all Colts built on the Official Police frame were qualified for use with these rounds.
 
when did the first +P 38 revolvers arrive on the scene ? I didn't realize they were available that long ago ?

Until recently no revolvers were actually marked as suitable for +P ammo.
As Bob said, guns and hot load ammo were available as far back as the 1920's.

The actual +P load itself appeared in the 1960's and was usable in most any medium or larger frame revolver.
Colt always said that +P was usable in the "E" frame guns like the Official Police and original .38 Special Trooper.
S&W says that +P is okay in any medium frame S&W that has a model number stamped on the frame, which started back in the 1950's.

Most small frame revolvers were NOT rated for used with +P ammo.
Colt didn't rate +P for the small "D" frame revolvers like the Detective Special and Cobra until 1972 and S&W lagged for some years until finally rating some of the "J" frames for it.
However, a lot of people loaded the small frame guns cylinders with +P for "business" figuring any damage or excess wear would be the least of their problems if they actually had to use it.

Only a few revolvers in the last 20 years or so have actually been stamped as for use with +P ammo.

Where things get risky is with +P+ ammo.
The +P+ load was developed for police departments politically limited to .38 Special ammunition, but who actually wanted .357 Magnum ammo.
The +P+ is a custom load made on special order to the specifications of a department.
Since there is no official SAAMI standard for it, it can range in power from a very hot .38 Special load to a .357 Magnum level load.
This is actually intended to be used in .357 Magnum revolvers, but would allow the department to tell the politically correct bosses that they were using .38 Special ammo.

Since it's custom loaded ammo to unknown specifications and power level, this is often very unsafe to fire in any standard .38 Special revolver.
Since it is special order ammo, you have no way of knowing just how hot it is and whether it's safe in a .38 Special revolver.
 
when did the first +P 38 revolvers arrive on the scene ? I didn't realize they were available that long ago ?

Opinions differ on this, mostly because the +P ammo of today was for many years just considered a heavy load for the 38Spl. SAMMI came up with the designation of +P only in the 1970s if I recall correctly.

Heavy loads were being used and developed from the time the 38 Spl. was developed in the early 1900s. I have an old Ideal catalog that lists 162 gr. bullets going over 1000 fps from a 6" barrel. This was before the development of the 38/44 Heavy Duty. Even heavier and faster loads were being fired from the Colt New Service, Colt SAA and later the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman.

The equivalent of the 38Spl +P with a lswchp bullet was used from the 40s on.

So revolvers that could handle the load were early developments.

However S&W and Colt hesitated to say that there older revolvers were rated for +P ammo once the designation was officially adopted by SAMMI. This was for liability reasons as lawsuits became more common.

tipoc
 
I prefer the Cor-Bon DPX 110gr.+P.

It's one of the most effective loads for a .38spl. snub.

The recoil isn't bad either.
 
Dfariswheel is a wealth information!

Dfariswheel:
All I can say is...
Thank you for giving us a historical and social perspective on this ammo!
Amazing!
 
The .38 Special +P+ was especially well suited to short barreled .357 Magnum revolvers. The round gave .357 Magnum performance, while being easily extracted by the shorter extractor throw of the short barrel guns.

Bob Wright
 
Dfariswheel:
All I can say is...
Thank you for giving us a historical and social perspective on this ammo!
Amazing!

Ask him a question about Pythons...

He has forgotten more about Colt than I ever knew about all other gun makers combined.
 
With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.

More info here - http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp
 
i get a ton of leading using the lead swaged, i prob just need to go up a size, but even under i load of 3,1 hp38 i got a TON of leading, it was even splashed all over the outside of my cylinnder and i had the 38spl [ring] on the inside of all my 357 chambers
i assumed the swaged was just too soft and have opted for a harder alloy snce, although i did retreive many of the bullets and they expanded to about the size of a 50c piece sometimes, pretty impressive, just too messy for me
i could go back to development and surely get them to work, just havent taken the time yet

maybe just not goood w/o gas check, but i was suprised at such a light load the amount of splattered lead on my piece
 
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