38 S&W Special Ctg

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newman84

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I am trying to find out about a Smith and Wesson 38 s&w special ctg that my dad just inherited. It was his uncle or great uncles gun when my dad was a kid. His uncle was a security guard for caterpillar in the 1960's and this was his service revolver. At least the best my dad can remember because he remembered it being the first pistol he ever saw. Anyways I am trying to find out more about it for him. Any help on age and value would be greatly appreciated. The serial number on the gun s 1486xx. Model number is 64916. It has a 4- 4.5 inch barrel with a chrome or nickel finish with wood grips. It has s&w trademark stamp on right side of the gun. My phone usually won't let me upload pictures on here but if I figure a way out I will get some pictures up. Again thanks for any information you can share on this gun.
 
The ctg just refers to the caliber as in "cartridge". 38 Special.
Not sure what the "16" you mentioned in the model number is, and the Model 649 is a stainless steel, concealed hammer 5 round 357 Magnum snubbie introduced in 1985. Not likely a "service" revolver, but more likely for plain clothed concealment.
Either your timeline, or model number seem askew.
Making some assumptions on date, and use, with a 4" barrel it is most likely a K frame with nickel finish. If the rear sight is not adjustable, but rather a groove milled in the top of the frame, it is probable a Model 10. Very popular in the era for police, and security guards.
 
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Yes it looks just like that. It has a groove for rear sight. Only difference is that on dad's inside the frame it does not have mod. 10-5 like yours does it just has the numbers I listed above. It might have a small 8 before it and with the serial number where the shell ejector rests. We are pretty sure it was an 8 it was small. Could the model number I gave be more of a production number? It is stamped on the gun in about 3 places so is the serial number.
 
Howdy

If it was a Model 10, it would say so. In 1957 Smith and Wesson changed over to their present model numbering system. Frames were stamped with model numbers on the frame under the crane. Open the cylinder, and look at the number stamped on the frame. If it is a Model 10 it will say MOD-10, or MOD-10-X.

I suspect the gun you have is considerably older than 1957. Do you have the Serial Number correct? The gun's SN is stamped on the underside of the butt. Is there any sort of letter before the SN? If the gun's SN is 1486xx, it is the precursor to the Model 10, the 38 Military and Police Model or 1905. If the SN is correct it is a 38 M&P 3rd Change, made between 1909 and 1915.

Take a look at the front sight on this revolver. It is a typical half moon front sight. The front sight on the pistol on gunbroker is more typical of a Model 10.

MampP5inch01_zps8b5013a7.jpg


The number stamped on the frame on your Dad's revolver is just an assembly number used to keep track of parts during assembly. It is meaningless.

What about the finish? If the nickel finish was done at the factory, the trigger and hammer will not be plated, they will be case hardened. If the hammer and trigger are plated, the plating was not done at the factory.

The SN on a gun of this era should appear in 4 places. Butt of the gun, rear of the cylinder, underside of the barrel, and underside or the extractor star (difficult to see).

P.S. revolver barrels are measured from the front of the cylinder to the muzzle. 4", 5", and 6" barrels were common with the M&P revolvers. 4 1/2" was not .
 
#1: Look here for a model number. If it was made after 1957 it will have one. This one a MOD 25-2.


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#2: Look here for a serial number. Note this one has an N prefix. Many S&W serials have letters. They are important.


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#3: A complete description. How many chambers in the cylinder? Does it have adjustable target sight or a simple front blade and groove rear? Barrel length from face of cylinder to muzzle. Any other words stamped on barrel?
 
The gun doesn't have the mod number on it. The serial number is correct. My dad and I looked it over really well earlier today. It is a six shot revolver with Smith and Wesson stamped on the left side of the barrel and 38 s&w special ctg stamped on the right side of the barrel with no other markings on the barrel. The barrel would be the 4 inch as I didn't measure it earlier I was just guessing on the length of it. The rear site is grooved, the front sight is fixed but I don't remember the exact shape on it. It only has the two different numbers listed on it. The serial number on the butt plate is different than the one in saxonpig's picture. The s is located on one end with the serial number located on the other end of the plate. The serial number is located in 3 to 4 different places with the model number showing up in at least 2 to 3places as well. I don't have internet on my computer just my so called smartphone and it won't cooperate to upload pictures. How would I be able to tell if the trigger and hammer were plated or case hardened?
 
The revolver appears to be a Military & Police model, basically the same gun as the Model 10, but made in 1909, long before S&W began using model numbers.

The identification is pretty solid; S&W really made only one .38 Special model in those numbers, the M&P, first made in 1899. .38 Special target models, pre K-38, would have target sights.

Jim
 
Thanks for all the help. I have found out quite a bit about this gun this evening, even the customer support number to Smith and Wesson. Could anyone give me a rough value of it? I have been checking online auction sites and can't really find much as far as nickel plated 38's. I found one similar with a bad finish for 440, with non nickel plated ones going for 5-900 dollars. The nickel on the gun is in good condition with no noticeable blemishes. On the left grips the s and w symbol on the grip is a little messed up but is still legible. The grip has some probably normal wear.
 
Unless your gun has some unusual feature or is in 100% condition $400 would be the highest you could expect.
That's being optomistic.
 
You could tell if the trigger & hammer are plated or case hardened by looking at them.
If plated, they'll match the nickel plating on the rest of the gun. If they do, S&W did not do the plating.

If they show dark case colors instead of bright plating, then they're not plated.

Value would be lowered by a non-factory plating job.
That old, probably not a factory nickel anyway.

Value could be $200, could be double, possibly more, depending on who did the plating, when, and the overall condition.
Original grips or replacements would also affect value.

Denis
 
Here is mine. It's a "pre model 10" from the late 1920's. It's a good shooter. I only paid around $140 for it, but it took me months to find one that cheap.

SW38_zps256a3ece.jpg
 
I called Smith and Wesson today and gave them the serial number and the man told me it is a 1955-1956 probably 56 he said n frame model 20. I have had good luck searching through these forums and am now a little confused. It looks very similar to all the pics posted with the half moon sight. The man at Smith and Wesson confirmed that they were made with that sight at the time.
I forgot to ask the man, but if that is the correct age, could it have come factory with nickel plating? Would they have plated the trigger and hammer, as they are plated as well?
 
I called Smith and Wesson today and gave them the serial number and the man told me it is a 1955-1956 probably 56 he said n frame model 20
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That was a heavy framed 38 Special made to take a more powerful 38 Special round. The precursor to the 357 Magnum.
Very cool, and the collectability, and value just went way up over the M&P, or model 10 that most thought it was.:D:D:D
http://www.38-44heavyduty.com/38-44_HEAVY_DUTY_HISTORY.php
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=s&w+38/44
 
newman84 said:
Only difference is that on dad's inside the frame it does not have mod. 10-5 like yours does it just has the numbers I listed above.
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S&W did not use model numbers for Hand Ejector (i.e. swing-out cylinder) revolvers until 1957. Before model numbering started, these revolvers were categorized by name. These names tend to stump folks unfamiliar with old S&W's because only two models- the .38 Regulation Police and the .357 Highway Patrolman- normally had the actual name inscribed anywhere on the gun. For other models, the name is usually determined by examining the gun's chambering combined with its other features; the name was printed on the box and owner's manual, but these items are typically long lost.

Despite the names, it's fairly common practice for S&W enthusiasts to refer to guns made after WWII but before 1957 as "pre-Models", e.g. pre-Model 10.
newman84 said:
I called Smith and Wesson today and gave them the serial number and the man told me it is a 1955-1956 probably 56 he said n frame model 20.
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This gun is a .38/44 Heavy Duty aka pre-Model 20.

These guns were originally designed to fire a special high-powered version of the .38 Special round marketed variably as the .38/44 (hence the name) or the .38 Special Hi-Speed. This ammo was largely withdrawn from the market after WWII, partially due to safety concerns given its tendency to blow apart older .38 Special revolvers, and partially for marketing reasons- S&W had discovered that buyers would happily pay a lot more for .357 Magnum revolvers that had the same basic capabilities and cost around the same amount to manufacture.

AFAIK the prewar .38/44 actually remains the all-time top-selling N frame model due to its adoption by several law enforcement agencies, but after WWII, its sales dropped off steeply due to declining availability of the special ammunition and increasing availability of less expensive and lighter .357 Magnum revolvers that were perceived as being superior. The postwar pre-Model 20 is quite a rare gun, and model-numbered examples are rarer still.
newman84 said:
...if that is the correct age, could it have come factory with nickel plating?
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Yes, this was an option, and was reportedly popular with lawmen in hot and humid (read: rust-inducing) Southern climates.
newman84 said:
Would they have plated the trigger and hammer, as they are plated as well?
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NO. On a factory nickel Smith, the hammer and trigger have color case finish, the ejector star and ejector rod are blued, and the cylinder pawls on the ejector star are natural metal. Nickel in these areas indicates a refinish. (As a footnote, the blue ejector rod finish often wears off with use, but this leaves natural metal that will have a slightly different appearance from the nickel parts.) Additionally, later nickel Smiths had a shallow capital letter "N" stamped on the cylinder face, but I've forgotten whether S&W applied this mark in the time period in question.

WORD OF WARNING: During the period when .38/44's were much cheaper than equivalent .357 Magnum guns (i.e. the 1950s and 1960s), it was fairly common practice to lengthen the chambers of a .38/44 to allow .357 Magnum ammo to be fired. Doing so is not categorically unsafe because (a) the guns are VERY strong and (b) most commercial .357Mag is not loaded to the full limits of the cartridge's capability. However, due to the rarity of this gun, I would consider it unwise and inadvisable to fire .357 in it; the chances are fairly remote that you'll blow it apart, but a chance exists. :eek:
 
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Thanks to everyone for all of your help. This has probably been the hardest pistol to research that I have looked into lately, even harder to find information on than my 1903 COLT New Navy. I think all that I have found out will make my father quite happy.:)
 
As far as value goes, with a non-factory plating job collector value is severely reduced.

Worth more than a K-Frame pre-10, but not as much as if un-altered.
Denis
 
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