.38 S&W is it really a .38 AR?

J

James E

Moderator
I'll probably be told this belongs in handloading, but I'm not sure if it does.

What got me thinking about this was loading the .45 AR (auto rim ctg.) which is not much more than a .45 acp with big fat rim to chamber in old model 1917 S&W or early Colt Newservices. If you didn't use the .45 AR ctgs you would have to use half moon clips to chamber .45 acp ctgs in their cylinders. Now, the lowly .38 S&W ctg if laid side by side with a 9 mm ctg will seem pretty close in dimensional height, .38 caliber bullets for the most part will interchange in either ctg, although the .38 S&W calls for at least a .358 to .360 diameter. The .38 S&W ctg is never loaded very fast because it is such an antiquated round that is from yesteryears. But why is that, why can't it be loaded as warm as 9 mm using same weight bullets as 9 mm. It would in effect become a .38 AR much like the ol blunder buss .45 AR only on a much smaller scale. I realize the lowly .38 S&W ctg is shot in a lot of old firearms that shouldn't have souped up velocities. But they could be mfg in boxes marked for modern firearms only coudn't they. For example S&W has made some 9 mm chambered revolvers that either use full moon clips or have the wire extractor gizzmo, couldn't these guns shoot .38 S&W souped up ctgs. What do you think 38 AR...or forget it and get yourself a .357 mag.

Jim
 
Jim,

Your question is somewhat confusing, and I believe there to be a few dimensional errors here and there, but here's a simple answer: If you want more power, just buy the .357 Mag. No sense re-inventing the wheel.

---------------

Second shot at reading your question... I took my time, read slowly, and it seemed to make more sense (my apologies), but my conclusion remains the same: buy the .357 Mag.



[This message has been edited by Sub MOA (edited July 24, 2000).]
 
If I understand your question correctly, you're wondering if .38 S&W can be used in 9mm revolvers.

I'd have to say that the answer is no, but I don't have any of my manuals up here to check the dimensions.

The .38 S&W was introduced in 1871-73 range.

There IS a rimmed version of the 9mm, called the 9mm Federal. It was introduced for a very short lived Charter Arms revolver called the Pit Bull. Federal loaded the ammo.

Charter folded about 6 months after introducing the round, Federal pulled it off the market, and it's extremely hard to find.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Jim, the .38 begat the .38 special which begat the .357 Mag. The differences in case length were more to preclude liability problems than for more case capacity as pressures and performance went up. Yes, even in those days when we were both pups, there were potential liability problems.

If you can chamber a 9X19 in the .38 you will be dealing with pressures that are 150 to 200 percent of design pressures for the gun.

Use .38 cases and loads please, don wanna lose you or have somebody thump on you for hittin em with a piece of your gun.

Very few cartridge companies sell hot loads with warnings about gun application. Even with proper labeling they are at risk if a underinformed person blows up a substrength gun.

Example...most over the counter ammo for the 45/70 is loaded for the old trapdoor springfield, even tho many more modern guns will handle far more pressure and performance. Just too many trapdoors around to risk the liability.

Sam..my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R
 
Not saying load souped up loads in old .38 S&W revolvers, just in modern made firearms like S&W 9 mm revolvers or any other modern made firearm. Don't worry me not going to load any hot stuff in my antique stove pipe Police Positive. Strickly 600 to 700 fps stuff for it.

Mike, that's interesting about the 9 mm federal cartridge, guess that one got by me even knowing it existed. Wish I could read the deminsional specs on it so as to compare it to the .38 S&W cartridge. Never having handled a 9 mm revolver have no idea about cylinder chambering specs. Just curious if this was possible and don't intend to persue it any further than that.

Jim
 
I started loading up break top 38s&w Iver johnsons with 2 gr Bullseye with 158 gr .360" soft lead bullet. This is a wimpy book load.
I experemented with 9mm max loads [case capacity is about the same]. I put J frame deceleraltor grips on to handle the recoil.
Then I was working up through the 38 Super loads [7.9 gr Blue Dot 158 gr .357 JHP] When teh guns latchs loosened up. One .020"
and one .003". The failure mode was the eye of the latch opened from round to egg shaped.

To answer your question directly, Jim, I have taken the 38S&W case past max 9mm and there is no sign of case failure. I would say that sticky brass will stop load work up at 42k psi and there will never be a case failure. I base this on my torture testing of 38 Special brass. They both have web thickness' of .175". With rims on the order of .050", there is chamber support margins of .125". I can take semi auto cases with negative chamber support margins to 42k psi in this case diameter.

One could prove this by resizing the 38s&w to fit in a .357 mag and load it to pressure sign.
 
Jim...I was confustipated bout which way you were thinking of goin. Sorry.

The 9X19R would probably be a lot stronger case than the .38 S&W. Nominally the 9mm is bout 4.5 thousanths larger at the base than the .38 but that is closer than a lot of the chamber differences within same brand and model.

Sam
 
Clark, you are saying you've gone way over 9 mm normal bullet and powder loads with the .38 S&W cartridge? Have you shot any in modern steel revolvers instead of the old Iver Johnson revolvers and did the guns hold up OK. Guess I mean 9 mm equivlant loads in .38 S&W cartridges. My point of discussion is will the lowly .38 S&W brass hold up under 9mm pressures. Capish.

Jim
 
C.R. Sam,

The .38 Smith & Wesson was NOT the predecessor to the .38 S&W Special. Developmentally the .38 S&W can be thought of as something of a dead end.

The cartridge that S&W used as the basis for the .38 Special was the .38 Long Colt.

Serious logic behind that choice...

It was recognized that the .38 Long Colt was lacking in "stopping power," so S&W wanted to try to sell the Army, which had adopted the .38 Long Colt & .38 Colt revolver, on a more powerful round made by S&W.

But, given the economies in the military, S&W felt that it would have a MUCH better chance of getting the new cartridge accepted if it were to be as dimensionally similar to the .38 LC as possible, and hence could be made on existing Gov't tools & machinery.

Thus, we have the .38 S&W Special, which is dimensionally identical to the .38 Long Colt, except for the length of the case.



------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I have shot a great deal of 4.5 gr Unique behind 158 gr JHP .357 in a 38 S&W.
I have also shot allot of 5.3 gr Unique 110gr JHP .357. Both of these loads are at the top of 9mm. The 38 S&W has a little more volume than a 9mm and less than a 38 Super.

I have shot 7.9 gr Blue Dot behind 158 gr JHP .357 which is a medium 38 Super and way above 9mm. The 38 S&W cases had no trouble in the few I shot, but the 2 Iver Johnson break tops did not hold up well. They stretched their latches.
 
That's interesting, Clark and Mike. But I would still prefer some test with modern steel revolvers to see if the .38 S&W could be loaded up to the equal of a 9 mm ctg. It would also be best if velocity test were conducted. I realize this is not likely to ever happen as who in the industry would check this out...except maybe charter arms once did as Mike had reported. Trouble there is its ancient history and we today don't know anything about that ctg and wither its the equal of a .38 S&W ctg or not. I've got a hunch the .38 S&W could become a .38 AR (auto rim) like its big brother the .45 AR (auto rim ctg). This is all going to be a bit confusing to the uninitiated in ctg lore, but it has some merit of logic believe it or not Ripley.

Jim
 
James E, You seem to want to load a 38S&W to 9mm loads. Go ahead. I have done it. It's allot more fun than 13kpsi book loads.

You post allot about the 38S&W, I really like the round too. My grandfather carried it in the Alaskan gold rush.
 
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