.38 DEWC full power loads

T

TimSr

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I'm having trouble finding any real load data for loading .38 148gr double end wadcutters to their full potential. Most of the published data is for soft lead HBWC for light target loads. When I find data for any wadcutter loads, it always seems to be aimed towards light paper punching with a max seemingly listed based on reasons other than pressure. I have plenty of experience to work off of data listed for similar bullets except that wadcutters are seated way more deeply than other bullets.

I carry a .38 snubbie with fixed sights. A low velocity hollow point that may not expand is just another round nose bullet. I am loading hard cast DEWCs for defense, preferable to SWC. I'd like to get on the upper end of the potential scale for these bullets seated in the cannelure, as either full power .38 loads or flirting into +P land. I've worked up some pretty good loads, but have no idea where I am on the pressure scale other than no signs of overpressure. I'm using Blue Dot, Red Dot, Unique, and bullseye. Does anyone know where I can find any info for loading full power DEWC for defense loads?
 
Does anyone know where I can find any info for loading full power DEWC for defense loads?
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Since the DEWC is not designed for such a purpose, it is unlikely you'll find published data on it. Actually, it is hard to find a lot of published data for DEWC's - period - regardless of application.

I load/shoot more 38 Special DEWC's than any other bullet. The hottest I've loaded them is with 4.2gn W231 that yielded 906 fps though a 3" bbl (956 - 4"bbl; 967 - 8-8/3"bbl). That's starting to get kind of stout. Maybe just touching +P territory. There were no signs of pressure and probably could have been loaded hotter. I stopped making this load because it didn't serve my purpose - and that is, as a low-power, accurate, target shooter - the usual purpose for a DEWC.

If you want such a loading, you're probably going to need to work it up on your own. My only suggestion would be to stick with a fast powder if you're going to shoot them through a snubbie. Moving to a slower powder will probably yield some velocity gain; but it come at the expense of a lot more flash, noise, and recoil.
 
was thinking the same, & had a thread a while back... I didn't ask for specific load data though...

I'd be temped to load & crimp on a groove or grease groove that give you more case capacity... ( obviously depending on the actual bullet used )

wanted to tag in here... & see what kind of answers show up...

I thought about these, or a similar bullet, & re-lubing to fill the bottom crimp groove, & seat & crimp into the top lube groove... so my case capacity, at least, would be similar to a semi wad cutter of similar bullet weight... note these are hard cast, & not the soft hollow based lead composition... these are .357"

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046314647/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-38-caliber-357-diameter-148-grain-lead-wadcutter?cm_vc=ProductFinding

these are the same alloy & are .358"

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/464839/meister-hard-cast-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-148-grain-lead-double-ended-wadcutter-box-of-500?cm_vc=subv464839
 
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The following information is from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (1973)

38 Special....148gr double end wadcutter with #2 alloy.

Bullseye 3.5gr......920fps

Red Dot 3.7gr......930fps

Green Dot 3.8gr.....925fps

Unique 4.7gr.......980fps

357 Magnum.......141gr button nose wadcutter with #2 alloy.

Bullseye 4.5gr.........1065fps

Unique 7.5gr.........1420fps

2400 15.0gr........1590fps

This information is just as good today as it was the day it was printed.
 
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Lyman's current manual lists 150 grain cast linotype BNWC (button nose) up to about 950 fps at full pressure.
Titegroup and W231 look like the velocity champs there.
As note above, you can drive them to full speed in .357 magnum brass, so .38 should be no sweat.
 
This is helpful information. My Lyman 46th only lists a 141gr BNWC. They list loads at 900-1000fps from a 4" barrel. My old Speer manuals list a 148gr Bevel base wadcutter at 800-900, but I'm not sure that bullet is seated as deeply as a DEWC. Comparing that with Bluetopper's data I can feel better about being in the ballpark.

I've been shooting these bullets since the 80's in my 6" GP100 as target loads but this is the first serious effort I've actually put into developing snub loads and booting velocity, and taking real chrono readings.

Some things I've found so far.

3.0 gr Red Dot averages 735fps from my snub.

7.1 gr of Blue Dot goes at 833fps.

I also tried seating them out further, crimped just above the wax groove, same as SWC depth, and the 7.1 gr Blue Dot Load was reduced to 714 fps. This same load ran at 870 fps from 6" barrel.

I'm going to up the Red Dot load a bit, and also chrono Bullseye and Unique. Conventional wisdom says I should get better results from faster powders as Nick mentioned, but at the same time Blue Dot works really when when confined to tight spaces. I may seat some of more of them out to SWC depths and increase the charge following 158gr SWC data.
 
Yes, slower powders such as Blue Dot burn much better and more consistent under higher pressures such as the case with a deeper seated bullet as you mentioned.
 
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.38 DEWC loads

TIM.....SPEER#10 manual lists the 148 BBWC w/5.1gr UNIQUE / 1.295" OAL @ 981fps; and 4.3gr RED DOT @ 964fps. Both loads from a RUGER Security 6 w/ 6''barrel. My GP100 4" does 950 avg. with these lds. and my Smith Mod 65 4" does 930-940fps. Case/primer choice makes no difference, and the loads are not listed as +P.

Their data for their 146 HP (jacketed) is 5.9gr UNIQUE for 1048(+P) and 5.7gr WW231 for 1044(+P). If your bullets are sufficiently hard cast, you shouldn't have any problems as I've shot all the above loads through my TAURUS 85 2-1/2" brl. with no problems what so ever for the past 20+ yrs.

They should work for you. I was told some years ago that you can load hard cast bullets (12-15+ BH) with the same weight jacketed bullet data with no pressure concerns. I've done that with weights from 125gr. up to 180 grs, (XTPs/Cast Perf.) in .357MAG,and with similar weights in 9MM, 10MM, .44 SPL/ MAG, and .45 ACP, as well as with the .38 SPL. with no problems. The option is up to you.

Just offerin' my $.02.

Good Luck and Good Shootin'.

WILL.
 
will, I have no concerns about leading whatsoever. I do agree that cast bullets of the same weight will generate lower pressures than jacketed, and have used jacketed data for magnum hard cast loads often. In the case of the wadcutter, I don't know how much of a pressure spike you get from the deep seating. I found the Speer # 10 helpful, but it doesn't give the dimensions of the BBWC so I was unable to determine the if the seating depth was the same. Going by the picture, it did not appear to be as long. Just for clarification, are the loads you are shooting DEWC or BBWC over these charges? I'm shooting in the same gun you are, so your experience is very helpful.

I'll let you know where I end up.
 
Some further considerations:

The Speer #14 shows only the HBWC. It is longer, but because the base is hollow, it leaves the same amount of powder space under it when it is seated to the same depth as any other wadcutter of the same weight made from the same material and with the same lubrication scheme. Some cast bullets with deep lube grooves will be a little longer.


With some special exceptions in rifles and single shot chambers, seating deeper raises pressure for any given charge weight. This is an important reason the charges listed for wadcutters are small. The flush seated bullet doesn't leave much space, so pressure is higher for a given quantity of propellant gas present before the bullet moves. Seating a wadcutter out to allow more powder space will let you use more powder, but be aware that adding enough powder to bring the velocity back up in the larger space does not reach the same peak pressure, which can be a problem with slower powders, making them ignite less consistently and burn dirtier. If you seat a WC no deeper into the case than a LSWC, then the LSWC loads will be close to valid with it.

To find seating depth:

Seating Depth = case length + bullet length - COL​

Find the seating depth of the LSWC from that. Then rearrange to see what COL the wadcutter should have to match it as:

COL = case length + bullet length - Desired Seating Depth​

Note that book case length is used for the above to be consistent, and not individual case lengths, as it's actually the distance from the base of the bullet to the bottom of the head inside the case that we are interested in.


Whether a lead or a jacketed bullet produces less pressure in a revolver can depend on load level. If you read Skeeter Skelton or some of the other old revolver aficionados, you'll find they say they got higher pressures with lead when developing maximum loads. I believe this is because they got to a point where lead deformation out into the forcing cone added to the swaging pressure required to get it into the bore. There may be other reasons. The point is that lead bullet loads that develop less pressure than jacket bullets at lower pressures and more at higher pressures are going to see faster pressure rise with increased powder charge than jacketed bullets do. For that reason you need to be extra conservative about powder charge increments as you get to higher pressures with them.


The Lee Tumble Lube .38 wadcutter mold design is perfect for seating out, as any of the many small lube groove in it may be used as the crimp groove.
 
NICK... I don't think I'd want to use a tumble lube bullet as a CCW bullet though... ( not that any exposed portion couldn't be hand cleaned after loading )( as the OP's use mentioned ) even though I don't "pocket" carry, my little TCP gets embarrassingly full of lint, just from my cover shirts, in surprisingly short order... I can't imagine how quickly any exposed, externally lubed, portion of bullet would get fuzzy...

I was thinking about running back through a lubrisizer & filling all the grooves with lube, then taking a dental pick & clearing the top crimp groove, & possibly the top lube grove ( if needed ) if I crimped into it... on the bullets I linked, earlier in this thread...
 
MWM,

It's the little grooves rather than the lube recipe I was suggesting here, so he can choose his seating depth more easily. For a carry load you think may be in your lint trap for awhile, I would consider not lubing at all. If the bore is smooth, hard cast bullets with no lube don't lead badly, if at all, at non-magnum pistol velocities. Certainly not dangerously so for the number of rounds you might use in an emergency.

Alternately, once you know what groove you want to crimp into, you can thin the tumble lube with about 10-20% mineral spirits, then just dip the bullet bottoms to the groove below that one and set them on release paper (a.k.a., freezer paper at the grocery store) to dry. Turn them over after an hour or two so the bottom can dry, too.

Another trick with tumble lube is to let the bullets dry just until they are tacky, then re-roll them with a dusting of motor mica and then let them finish drying. This results in a surface essentially like that on swaged Hornady bullets, which also are all over the bullet. It's not nearly as sticky as the directly exposed liquid Alox lube.
 
Unclenick
My bullets seated out fine. Math gives me a headache, so I simply stood the bullets next to each other and noted that the SWC cannelure is slightly above the wax groove and seated them there. When seated out the wax lube is covered, intact, and undisturbed, and held in place with a light roll crimp. No bullet casting or special lubing necessary. It's just that I lost an average of 119fps when I did this with one particular load, and if I seat it out, have to add more powder, and recover only the lost velocity, I haven't improved. More testing is needed.

I agree that some lead bullets can expend and cause higher pressures than jacketed. It all goes back to lead hardness. All bullets expand under pressure just as they grow in width when you whack them with a hammer. Soft lead expands easier than jacketed soft lead, followed by hard cast, and hard cast jacketed. I was thoroughly tutored on this by Freedom Arms in the 80's when i bought a .454 Casull which was supplied with reloading data, and warnings about not using .45LC jacketed bullets above 45LC velocities, but I can run hard cast bullets at .454 Casull velocities. Of course the special Freedom Arms bullets were jacketed hard cast.

I think I'll work up the loads bluetopper listed at normal seating and see how they work before over thinking anything, and then see if I need to get more creative from there. I do appreciate all the input from everyone.
 
.. loading .38 148gr double end wadcutters to their full potential. Most of the published data is for soft lead HBWC for light target loads.
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Light target loads IS THEIR FULL POTENTIAL!

Wadcutters are normally cast or swaged from either pure lead or very soft alloy. You cannot drive them fast enough to make them effective defense loads without serious problems.

If you want a full wadcutter profile bullet for defensive use, cast your own in a suitable alloy mix. Commercial wadcutters are too soft for that.

Personally, in .38 boresize and .38 special speeds, I don't see any advantage defensively speaking between a semi wadcutter and a wadcutter, as far as shape in concerned. And semi wadcutters (SWC) designed and made for defense load speeds are common and easily available.
 
Well, I use 150 gr DEWC, air cooled wheel weight alloy, in my house gun, 3" .38 Special. I load with info I found in my Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd and 4th Editions. I'm loading with a near max. load of W231 (I won't reveal my real load :rolleyes:) . In my "amateur ballistician's" mind, I think this would give a good wide flat point for tissue destruction, shock, and fair penetration without worrying about over penetration (I once shot a .44 Special all the way through a 40' mobile home).
 
Wheel weights (#2 alloy) is a good choice for that.

Like a lot of us, I messed around with wadcutters, mostly hollow based, including seating them upside down and at speed ranging from about 600fps to about 1,000fps.

Numerous issues when you go fast, with the regular commercial swaged soft lead wadcutters. Out of a different alloy (like wheelweights) it would be a different matter.
 
44AMP, I've found that most commercial DOUBLE END WADCUTTERS are not cold swaged, and are hard cast with at least a Brinell 12 which has more potential than 700fps paper loads, and the soft lead HBWC you are speaking of. I'm still working from a boatload I bought in the 80's, which are probably harder. Like I said before, I have no concernes whatsoever about barrel leading or accuracy. My concern was the pressure limitations of a .38, since my work with these before has always been a GP100.
 
I see your point, and they would certainly be better than soft swaged lead. But I wouldn't call a rating of 12 "hard" cast. 18 and above, I would call "hard" cast. But that's just me...
 
FWIW; IMO, today the term "hard cast" means the bullet is cast and not swaged, and has little to do with bullet hardness (since there's no "official" designation of hard vs. soft). When I started foolin' with cast bullets "hard cast" wasn't thrown around like it is today, one either said cast or swaged when talking about lead bullets...

Kinda like 45 Colt vs. 45 "Long" Colt. :D
 
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