.38 compared to 9mm

In factory loadings the 9 has it all over the .38 because ammo makers worry about the older and cheaply made guns so pressures are kept very low. Hold up a .38 Special next to a 9MM Parabellum and tell me which has the greater case capacity. Now explain to me why the ammo makers load the top .38 loads so far below the 9MM in terms of velocity.

In quality revolver of recent (mid-1930s or later) manufacture the .38 Special can be safetly loaded much hotter than is shown in the reloading manuals. Again, the pressure levels established for theis round are based on fears concerning the many very old and cheaply made guns still floating around out there.

A few years ago I started building loads for the .38 using a 4" M10 as the test vehicle. I achieved 1,405 FPS with a 110 grain JHP and the cases fell from the chambers with no problem at all. Recoil was quite mild (I think bullet weight has more to do with it than does velocity) but the loads shot really low, which happens with high velocity loads and fixed sights.
 
Saxon nailed alot of good points. The 38 load when introduced was MUCH stronger than it is now. The older/weaker gun issue is a great variable ammo makers have to consider because of Ambulance Chaser attornies + stupid people who own guns = lawsuits aka lots of money for both. :rolleyes:
Current data on the 38+P round IMO is kinda skewed a bit. Most is fired from snubbie guns and cant produce much velocity, in effect limiting its currently known ballistics.
9mm vs current 38+P loads, the 9mm walks away from the +P in almost every regard...velocity, energy, terminal" data and so on.
9mm is a much higher pressure round in factory loaded ammo and in most cases is fired from a longer barrelled gun....helping out with the inherent advantages associated with the round.

You can look at the actual numbers created by the rounds...for what their worth. You can take into account the types of guns they are used in most often and where these guns are preffered in a defensive situation.
The 9mm can be an MK9 for pocket carry to a Beretta Elite for Open/side carry...very versatile caliber when it comes to gun/carry options.
The 38+p guns are usually pocket guns...J frames and so on. They are either b/a guns to larger ones or an "always" carry that "fits the bill" when others cant. The round is a good compromise between recoil and effectiveness, when used in a lighter and smaller gun. Thats why they are popular IMO.

If you want a 38+P that out ranks a 9mm...add about .100" to the case and call it a .357 Mag...the only way. :D

Just my .02....er, .22 cents ....Shoot well
 
Thanks, I didn't even think of that. I have a .357 and a 9mm and when comparing the cartriges the .38 was much longer and also almost the same diameter. This made me wonder if the .38 was like a hot 9mm and if so why is the 9 looked at as the more powerfull load. Now like I said I own a .357, it's a Ruger SP 101 and I shoot both .357 and .38 out of it. So what I would like to know is where can I get some full power .38 loads? Is this impossible if I don't reload. It just seems a little strange that the .38 has all that room for powder and no one uses it.
 
Plenty of +P and +P+ .38 is around, some of it quite hot.

the "FBI" load is a 158gr LSWCHP +P, and the "treasury" load is a 110gr. JHP at 1000+ fps.
 
The reason the .38Spl case is so long is that it was the very last cartridge designed for the old "black powder" gunpowder (in 1895 I believe). "Black powder" was 1 part potassium nitrate, one part yellow sulpher, 4 parts charcoal. The potassium nitrate produced oxygen on ignition, the sulpher was the initial heat source, the charcoal was the fuel.

The 9mm Para was among the first rounds (1907) designed for smokeless powder, which is chemically related to nitroglycerin and is a totally different substance. On average, smokeless is six times more potent than black powder, although that varies by type. The Germans used that "power to size efficiency" to produce a smaller yet potent round - small bullets mean smaller grips in an auto, and less bulk for the military to transport.

In other words, you can't judge potential power by the case size. The 357Magnum is still way bigger than it needed to be, because they stretched the .38Spl case for safety - the new round couldn't be inserted into an older .38 gun, but the newer gun could take the old ammo.

That said, large case volumes can allow you to get impressive ballistics with less peak pressure, when you're "walking the edge" of the cartridge's power limits. So if you handload, and take two identical guns in .38Spl and 9mm, you can get more energy out of the .38 before it blows up than you can the 9mm.

Other "leftover calibers from the black powder era" are in common use: the .45LC dates to 1873 and was used by Custer's men at the Little Bighorn, the .45-70 is a little bit older than that and saw service there too (probably on both sides!), the .30-30, several others. But the .38Spl is by far the most popular, and often the only one a particular shooter might see...hence the "whoa, is that case huge or WHAT?" comments :).
 
Correct formula for black powder is 75% KCl, 10 % sulfur and 15 % charcol, by weight and ground and mixed together. don't try this at home.

Smokeless can be nitrocellulose based or a combination of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine.

The big dif. between 9x19 and 38 special is chamber pressure, the nine chamber pressure is approx. double that of the 38 special.
 
<scratches head>

I had the ratios on BP off?

Dang. Whoops.

Anyways. I'm aware there's different variants on smokeless, and was being somewhat general.

As to 30-30...hummmm. I did some Google checks, didn't turn up anything. You might be right though.

Anyways.

Two things we haven't talked about here:

1) Because the .38Spl/+P is more or less universally a revolver load, ammo makers don't need to worry about making the projectile shape compatible with feed ramps. So they can run really cavernous hollowpoint cavities, with no "compromises" for feeding. That factor can equal quite a bit of extra energy the 9mm might have - less energy but better expansion isn't a bad trade.

2) For the same reason, you can use a pure lead projectile in a revolver that might be tricky in a slidegun. And at .38+P velocities, a plain ol' lead hollowpoint, while not "state of the art", can work real well :).

3) On the pro-9mm side, some of the ammo makers have come out with new "post-hollowpoint" designs that make sense for a variety of reasons. Federal's E-FMJ and the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball are two good examples. Federal is saying they'll be a "slidegun calibers only" thing, while Cor-Bon isn't going that far but are going to do the slidegun calibers first. These critters offer easy feeding, but also reliable expansion over a wide velocity range and without much "hollowpoint clogging" danger. The E-FMJ in particular would make for a superb .38+P snubbie round, but per Federal that'll never happen. Federal ought to license the design on a "wheelgun only" basis to a smaller company interested in the niche; Proload or Texas Ammo or...whatever.
 
Not to mention that a 9 has the "carrying capacity" that no revolver (to date) does. The 6 (or so) relative to 13+++ ...

Good points all.

Wouldn't feel under-gunned with either.

All told though, I'd go for the 9 just because it is a flatter platform (BHP) relative to anything similar in a .38 (or a .357)

Like all three though & mix 'n match as I see fit ....

Ron, thought the BP formula was potasium nitratate versus chlorate .....
 
Actually, when first introduced, .38 Spl. loads were pretty sedate -- a 158-gr. Lead Round Nose bullet at about 850 fps with 21.5 grains of black powder, or right around where "standard velocity" .38 Spls. continue to be today.

Initial smokeless loads never really strayed that much from that baseline until the .38/44 came out in the late 1920s, and that was designed to be shot only in large-frame Smith and Colt revolvers.
 
The .30-30, along with the .25-35, were the first two commercially introduced smokeless powder cartridges introduced to the American shooting public -- in 1895.

It was originally hoped to introduce them with the roll-out of the 1894 Winchester in 1894, but when you're dealing with new technology, which smokeless was at that time, things happen.

So, the 1894 was first sold chambered for the .32-40 and the .38-55, both old Ballard (or Bullard, can't remember) target rounds that had been adopted by Winchester as their own.

The .25-35 and .30-30 both use the came case head and rim as the .38-55 and .32-40, but case length is shorter due to the less bulky nature of the smokelss powder.

JJMorgan is correct about the .32 Win. Spl. People didn't really trust the new technology to stick around, and people wanted a round that could be loaded with black powder in case smokeless failed, so we've got the .32 Spl. Same general ballistics as the .30-30, just a slower twist in the barrel so that it can handle black powder velocities.
 
RON, I don't think salt would be a very good oxidizer in BP. ;)
(But we know what you meant.)

I think you and Jim are both approximately correct, one is by volume and one is by weight.
 
Geez...

Every the peacemaker, Mal, ever the peacemaker...

What next, cutting a gun in half when two parties claim it?

Just call him Malomen... :D
 
Mike, I remember reading about 38 loads used by the NYPD that put around 550 FPE out of a 4" barrel...if Im correct :confused:
I know the 357 mag has lost a little energy over time but not to the same extent as the 38. Its possible the hotter 38's may have been a special order round just for the PD...dont know.

And as far as the gun is concerned...it would have to shoot bullets that are cut if half ...right? :rolleyes:

Shoot well
 
Eric,

I'm certain that with truly specialized loadings with powders that aren't available to the general public, and which would be unsafe in some guns, I could very likely double the energy in a 9mm round, too.

It's possible that NYPD did have loads that developed energies like that, but to tell you the truth I doubt it. That would require better than 1,200 fps with a 158-gr. bullet, and better than 1400 fps. with a 125-gr. bullet. That's probably possible, but the effects on the guns would likely be pretty bad.

But, velocity wise, the .38 Spl. hasn't really lost anything. The baseline for most standard velocity 158-gr. loads is still around the 850-900 fps. threshold.

In fact, with rounds like the .38/44 and .38 +P and +P+ loadings the .38 Spl. has gained SIGNIFICANTLY in velocity and energy in some loadings, while the .357 has been drawn back over the years.
 
Black Powder Formula

I belive KCl as noted in an earlier post is Potassium Chloride... which is most commonly know as salt substitute... it is not used in BP.

If my poor memory serves me, the composition is:

Sulfur 1 part
Charcoal (finely powdered) 1 part (symbol C)
Sodium Nitrate (Potassium may be substituted) 4 parts

The result is mixed with water to make a thich paste which is then formed into sheets and allowed to dry. It is then mehcanically crushed into particles of various sizes and screened into uniform grain size and stored by size.

As a footnote, black powder is an explosive, whilst smokless powder is classified as a propellant.

FWIW

Chuck
 
Jeff Cooper has written of loads for his wife's M60 that throw a 158 grain bullet at over 1,000 FPS from a 2" barrel. Sounds pretty stout for a J frame.
 
"Why not, if you shoot them from a .357, your fine anyway..."

Not necessarily.

Loads that are safe in a .357 Mag. casing can become literally explosive in a .38 Spl. casing due to significantly decreased case volume.

It's the reverse of what happens when you take a .38 Spl. load developing 900 fps and put it in a .357 casing and only get 800 fps.
 
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