.36 round ball for SD/HD?

M

Model12Win

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NOTE: Although concerning a black powder firearm, I chose this section of the forum for this thread because it is more pertaining to general usage/philosophy of use and ballistics inquiry rather than just a question about black powder shooting. Mods, feel free to move to the Black powder/Cowboy Action section if you do not share this opinion.

Hey everyone! Well, I'm the proud new owner of a Colt Navy 1851 revolver chambered in .36 caliber:

ca000_1851navyoval_7_horiz_1.jpg


I bought the gun mainly as a range/target piece but also as a backup in case my other home defense handgun, a Glock 19, goes down. It also may see some use being carried on the trails and in the woods for camping and come hunting season as a backup handgun, both for potential small game hunting of rabbits and squirrels, and defense from 2 and 4 legged predators if the need arises. I know .36 might be considered light for wilderness defense, but living in east-central Kansas it should be powerful enough to handle any dangerous predators out here.

I started this thread in order to discuss the .36 caliber round ball loads this gun uses. Ballisticly, the gun is capable of launching one of these balls (actually .375" in diameter) at around 900-1000 FPS depending on powder charge/type, and with a weight of roughly 81-83 grains this performance closely mimicks the on-paper performance of the .380 ACP when using a moderate charge of powder. With a full charge and especially with something like Hodgdon's 777 (a potent BP substitute) energies can get close to the 9x18mm Makarov. Usage in the U.S. Civil War and numerous gunfights in the Old West indicated good performance from this gun. Elmer Keith writes in his famous book Sixguns about how the .36 round ball fired from a Colt Navy had higher "stopping power" (I know that's a controversial term) than the on-paper ballistics might convey. Supposedly veteran Confederate cavalrymen (interviewed by Keith himself) preferred the round ball to the heavier conical bullets for loading in there Navies, claiming they were more effective against human targets.

Alas, I know some of you may think using a cap and ball revolver in this manner in the year 2014 is strange, and perhaps not recommended, but please be cordial. This will not be a primary defensive handgun for me, but as I said will serve in a secondary capacity in that role.

So what do you think about the effectiveness of the .36 caliber Colt Navy using round ball for home/self defense, wilderness defense from small predators (in this part of Kansas) and small game hunting?

This should be interesting! :)
 
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... Alas, I know some of you may think using a cap and ball revolver in this manner in the year 2014 is strange, and perhaps not recommended, but please be cordial. ...
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The big question is why you would consider this a viable option at all, given the wide range of much better choices?

Is it romanticism of some kind, or something else?
 
I bought the gun because I wanted it. Bad. LOL! This thread is just to get an idea of what others think about using this piece for things other than punching paper. Like I stated several times in the original post, this will serve in a secondary capacity only but I'm wanting to gauge it's overall effectiveness if it does come down to using it.

PS: Saxonpig- posts like yours are about as helpful as a toothache. Thanks for your (unhelpful) opinion though! :D
 
The very first handgun I ever owned was an original 51 Colt Navy Model. I was 12 at the time.
How effective is it?
Well I killed a lot of rabbits and ground squirrels with it when I was a kid. It as way more accurate with a ball than it was with a conical bullet. If I were to compare it to any modern handgun I’d say it was about like a S&W Victory Model 38 revolver that my uncle had. It fired the 38 S&W round, not the 38 Special round.

I have also owned a few 380s over the years, but all were small pocket autos and all were far more difficult to make hits with than the long barreled Colt. So if we were to say it was like a “long barreled 380” I guess that would be pretty close.

I never killed anything bigger than a 45 pound dog (My guess) with my old Colt. But it worked to keep me entertained, was my first step in becoming a good handgunner, and it killed every animal I ever shot with it.

In the hands of a good shot the old 36 cal cap and ball is far more effective than it is in the hands of a poor shot. Wild Bill Hickok seemed to agree.
 
Well, I suppose there's one advantage with this gun: It's not legally a firearm according to federal law (and probably most state laws). That could come in handy in some of the more restrictive states. There are, of course, also many disadvantages with using this firearm for hunting or defensive purposes:

  1. Single-action guns are a lot more difficult to shoot well unless you've practiced a lot.

  2. You can forget about ever reloading in a defensive situation.

  3. Ballistically, it looks like this gun will be less effective than most modern self-defense cartridges.

  4. I don't know much about black powder, but I'm assuming this gun will be very vulnerable to getting wet, which will be an issue when you're outdoors in the wilderness.

  5. I haven't shot a black powder gun in years, but I'll bet the smoke will be an issue if you ever shot it inside your house.

You already have this gun, so it's certainly a better backup than nothing. But there are definitely better choices out there.
 
I'm not into black powder guns, but some friends are and it seems a pretty complicated ritual to me. Our great-great-great-great grandfathers were masters, and maybe you are as well, but I personally would not rely on that gun to protect my life, even in a backup capacity (if you feel you need one), for all sorts of excellent reasons. Lots and lots of superior options have been developed in the last 150 years. Gorgeous gun though! :)
 
If it was all I had, You bet I would use it for HD. There are many documented instances from the past about an old musket or other BP firearm hung on the mantle with powder, patch/wad, and ball loaded for years, taken down primed and fired, some of which were certainly HD situations.

My biggest concern would be a safety issue, I'm not familiar with that firearm. Does it have a notch in between cylinders for the hammer to rest in, so it's not resting on a live cap?

If not you could do like they did way back, load up 5 cylinders, and roll up a $10 bill and put it in the 6th hole for burial money:p, but at todays rate you may have to load the 6th with gold to cover that. Or just keep the caps handy in case of need, technically speaking it's not legally loaded until it has a live cap, at least in most places I am aware of.
 
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My biggest concern would be a safety issue, I'm not familiar with that firearm. Does it have a notch in between cylinders for the hammer to rest in, so it's not resting on a live cap?
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Yes, there are six small bumps on the rear of the cylinder that can fit into a recess on the hammer that locks the gun and allows for safe carrying of all six chambers loaded. I have also heard about people sealing the chambers and capped nipples of the gun with melted beeswax, prividing an air and water tight seal. This prevents the powder and caps from getting contaminated from exposure, and prevents any corossion due to the BP soaking up moisture from the air.
 
Quite effective back in the day

Soft, spherical, bullets are quite effective stoppers.
That said, modern defensive ammo is far superior.
 
I've got a Ruger Old Army. .45. I shoot balls in it and you can hear them hit the target with a resounding "thwack".

No doubt it would be effective, no reason the .36 wouldn't be also.

My question would be leaving it loaded. Primers get knocked off. Powder gets damp etc.

I wonder how long people carried around a loaded cap and ball revolver back in the day? Did they unload it, dump the powder and reload with fresh powder and primers every day?
 
I wonder how long people carried around a loaded cap and ball revolver back in the day? Did they unload it, dump the powder and reload with fresh powder and primers every day?
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Most did not, but Wild Bill was known to do exactly that every morning before breakfast. And I believe he carried a pair of 36's on him. As to effectiveness of the caliber there are many in boot hill due to it's use not to mention those lying in Gettysburg Cemetery and other battlefields throughout the US from the same war. While it may not be as effective as a modern hollow point, it does work and works much better than the single shot black powder pistols carried from the beginning of the 1600's to the mid 1840's. A ton of them were produced and used until Colt came out with it's Single Action Army, SAA, Model P, Peacemaker, M1873 in 1873 which also was a black powder pistol, but with a metallic cartage and served as the US army's standard issue until 1892.

As to reloading in a hurry, I believe that extra cylinders can be purchased loaded and swapped out in a very short amount of time. I am not sure if it will take triple 7 pellets for powder, but if it does I would certainly use them and not worry about moisture and Percussion Caps fit a lot tighter than you think and should not fall off.

That is a nice gun you purchased, I personally like those that have the back strap on them (personal choice), but it should give you many many years of service and fun shooting.

Good luck and shoot straight.
Jim
 
As long as a black powder load is kept dry it will last forever.
Black powder is made of 3 ingredients, none of which will degrade with time.

When I first started gunsmithing I learned restoration of antique arms. Many of the old guns that were brought in were loaded, so of which we have family histories on. I can remember one in particular that was "grandpa’s old gun" and the dad and the son and 2 daughters grew up with it as a toy. It has the percussion nipple smashed down from who know how many snapping’s.

When the grand son brought it to me he was in his late 40s. He had it, his dad had played with it and when someone told him it could be valuable he brought it to me to see what a restoration would cost.

Guess what--------------- it had been loaded for about 70 years at least, and perhaps a lot more!
No caps were fired and the nipple was so smashed down it would have been impossible to put one on.

I pulled the ball and used a long brass rod to loosen the powder out. It was 100% fine.

I checked the bore and when I found it to be in good condition I made a new nipple and installed it. I used the old powder a new lubed patch and the old ball
It went off just like it was new powder.

So, the moral of the story is DO NOT think these old guns are safe toys to be played with. They can be just as deadly today as they were 200 years ago
 
So essentially you want a single action revolver that more or less shoots round balls roughly the size and velocity to 9x19 with no ability to reload?

Well that's up to you. I wouldn't.
 
Regardless of the OP's reason for using Colt 1853 Navy design, there is one aspect of loading with modern loose components that can enhance the reliability of the arm. The open top cap and ball design was notorious for action jamming when split or fragmented percussion caps fell into the action. So much so that pointing the sidearm skyward when cocking was well advised.

The use of plastic cap guards pressed around the seated percussion cap prevents cap fragmenting. These are available commercially or can be easily made from fish tank tubing.

http://www.rmcoxyoke.com/inc/sdetail/cap_guards/6552/189
 
I would not feel under gunned with it but it wouldn't be my first choice by a long shot. You do need to shoot it a lot and get familiar with it before putting it in that role. They will shoot tho.

25 yards more or less, one handed.

 
reliability, not so much. to many factors affecting reliability its not good to discuss.

the bullets ability to do work, well it does work. more then 25aco and 32 acp. not nearly as well as a 38 smith and wesson loaded with a 170+ grain bullet. or even the original 148 grain bullet.
 
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