358 Norma Mag

B

BoogieMan

New member
Would like to hear some thoughts on the cartridge. Good, Bad or Ugly.
I have an older FN Mauser action that I think I want to barrel up for this cartridge. It will be my go to big game (happens about twice a decade) and also something to make some noise at the range. The rifle is a 50's sported FN Mauser with a bad barrel. Think I will top it with a 3-9x european scope.
This is kind of a build it because its there, work to be done by me, reload gun.
First thought was 9.3x62, but I think I want to be closer to the 3000fps mark with 250gr bullets.
 
About as much power as one can get out of a 30/06 length action w/o lengthening mag well. Is it better than a 338 WM? Depends on whether you're a fan of .338 or .358.
 
I doubt you'll get much over 2700 fps with 250's from a .358 Norma Mag. You'll need a .338 Lapua Mag opened up to 35 caliber to get 3000 fps with 300 grain bullets. That is, if you want to stay at normal, maximum safe pressures.
 
The 358 Norma magnum will kill them just as dead as any other 35 caliber big game cartridge. 358 Win, 35 Whelen, 350 Rem Mag.

The 9.3x62 is a proven big game getter as well.

Any of those choices are more than enough for anything in North America.

A 375 Ruger is another good option for you to consider, it is basically a 9.3x64 Brenneke necked up to 9.5mm (375 caliber). It is more than capable of duplicating the old 375 H&H 270gr bullet at 2,700 fps load, so increasing that velocity with a 250gr bullet is doable although I don't think it is safe to break 3,000 fps.

Jimro
 
375 Ruger is intriguing, but has a lot of drop at range and im thinking (havent researched) that the 375 bullets are a little harder to find and are going to be much heavier to get the same bc. I like the fact that its not belted and it has huge case capacity. IMO a 30-06 will drop anything in NA one shot with good placement. The 358 gives a little more energy a little farther down range than the -06.
When having these discussions I kind of wish there was only 5 or 6 cartridges available. So many choices make it difficult to stay on path.
 
I would propose

.338-06. Better bullets available and no fooling with the bolt face. I had mine throated for 250 Noslers and can hit 2810 with 200 Hornadys in 22". One intriguing bullet, to me, is the 185 GMX.
 
About as much power as one can get out of a 30/06 length action w/o lengthening mag well. Is it better than a 338 WM? Depends on whether you're a fan of .338 or .358.
Click to expand...

Well you can eek out a little more velocity and power if you go with a wildcat based off of the .375 Ruger cartridge.
 
There is nothing wrong with your choice,but I will offer you some things to consider.
Just as with the .308 Norma,the .338 Win mag necked to 30 cal is the 30-338.
Both are essentially the same cartridge,only necking down .338 Win brass for .308 Norma will give you brass about .040 or .050 short COAL.Shoulder will be fine,just a short neck.

I have not researched it,but I suspect the same will be true for the .358 Norma.

I suggest you may want to consider that you may neck either .338 or .458 to create a nearly identical cartridge ,just .050 or so less neck.

True .358 Norma brass is not real common and expensive.
If you chamber true .358 Norma,you can use .338 Brass or .458 brass.Not a big deal.If you had PTG reamers slightly regrind a .358 Norma reamer for a .050 or so shorter neck,call it a .35-338,and use standard brass with no compromise..358 Norma dies and data will be fine.

With all due respect for your choice and preference,the .358 Norma is a .020 larger dia bullet...thickness of your thumbnail.
There are a lot more .338 dia bullets of various weights and constructions,they are more available,250 gr is no problem,and weight for weight,SD and BC will be a touch better for the .338 Win.

I think any subtle shade of grey performance difference would depend on what the need of the day was,and I don't think a critter would know the difference.My Nosler #5 book shows .338 Win mag to get 2780 fps with a 250 gr Partition,BC .473. H4831 powder.As I recall,its not in my book,but that is about the identical velocity you will find for a factory or book load in .358 Norma.I do not think you will find a factory or published load over 2800 fps with a 250 gr bullet in .358 norma

Something else slick about a .338 Win,would be a companion .308(or 30-06)

The reason is,bullets of the same BC will launch at the same velocity.(pretty close).
That means same trajectory.That means cost/recoil advantage with useful experience.
 
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Another cartridge to consider is a .35 Newton. It has a similar case capacity as the Norma cartridge but it doesn't have a belt. Cases are formed from 8X68S brass or Quality Cartridge makes it with the correct headstamp.

Here is some Quick Load data on it:
Code: 
250 PT's

Cartridge : .35 Newton
Bullet : .358, 250, Nosler PART SP 44801
Useable Case Capaci: 77.880 grain H2O = 5.057 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 79 59.20 2261 2838 33616 8601 94.7 1.422
-18.0 81 60.68 2316 2976 35841 8844 95.7 1.383
-16.0 83 62.16 2370 3118 38208 9074 96.6 1.342
-14.0 85 63.64 2424 3262 40739 9291 97.4 1.302
-12.0 86 65.12 2478 3409 43416 9493 98.1 1.263
-10.0 88 66.60 2532 3559 46309 9680 98.7 1.226
-08.0 90 68.08 2586 3712 49381 9850 99.2 1.191
-06.0 92 69.56 2639 3866 52663 10002 99.5 1.156
-04.0 94 71.04 2692 4023 56174 10136 99.8 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 96 72.52 2745 4182 59934 10252 100.0 1.091 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 98 74.00 2797 4343 63964 10347 100.0 1.060 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 100 75.48 2849 4506 68289 10431 100.0 1.030 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 102 76.96 2901 4670 72935 10512 100.0 1.001 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 104 78.44 2952 4836 77933 10590 100.0 0.973 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 106 79.92 3002 5004 83317 10664 100.0 0.946 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 108 81.40 3053 5175 89129 10733 100.0 0.920 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 98 74.00 2897 4658 76334 9937 100.0 0.989 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 98 74.00 2648 3891 52770 10504 97.3 1.152

Cartridge : .35 Newton
Bullet : .358, 250, Nosler PART SP 44801
Useable Case Capaci: 77.880 grain H2O = 5.057 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Winchester 760

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 80 60.80 2210 2711 31855 8513 88.8 1.466
-18.0 82 62.32 2266 2850 34047 8791 90.1 1.426
-16.0 84 63.84 2322 2994 36391 9062 91.3 1.387
-14.0 86 65.36 2379 3141 38903 9324 92.5 1.345
-12.0 88 66.88 2435 3292 41595 9576 93.5 1.303
-10.0 90 68.40 2492 3447 44483 9816 94.5 1.263
-08.0 92 69.92 2549 3606 47584 10045 95.5 1.224
-06.0 94 71.44 2605 3768 50916 10260 96.3 1.187
-04.0 96 72.96 2662 3934 54488 10461 97.1 1.151
-02.0 98 74.48 2719 4103 58298 10647 97.8 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 100 76.00 2775 4275 62387 10816 98.3 1.083 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 102 77.52 2832 4451 66784 10968 98.8 1.051 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 104 79.04 2888 4629 71518 11102 99.3 1.020 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 106 80.56 2944 4811 76623 11217 99.6 0.990 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 108 82.08 3000 4996 82136 11312 99.8 0.961 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 110 83.60 3056 5183 88099 11385 100.0 0.933 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 100 76.00 2903 4678 75146 10536 100.0 1.004 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 100 76.00 2600 3753 50234 10521 92.4 1.188

225 AB's

Cartridge : .35 Newton
Bullet : .358, 225, Nosler AccuBond 50712
Useable Case Capaci: 75.791 grain H2O = 4.921 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Winchester 760

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 61.60 2298 2638 31560 8228 86.0 1.403
-18.0 85 63.14 2358 2778 33785 8512 87.5 1.364
-16.0 88 64.68 2419 2923 36175 8790 88.8 1.326
-14.0 90 66.22 2480 3072 38745 9059 90.1 1.285
-12.0 92 67.76 2541 3225 41510 9319 91.4 1.244
-10.0 94 69.30 2602 3383 44489 9569 92.5 1.205
-08.0 96 70.84 2664 3545 47698 9807 93.6 1.167
-06.0 98 72.38 2726 3712 51166 10033 94.7 1.130
-04.0 100 73.92 2788 3882 54912 10245 95.6 1.095
-02.0 102 75.46 2850 4057 58967 10441 96.4 1.060 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 104 77.00 2912 4235 63363 10621 97.2 1.027 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 106 78.54 2974 4418 68136 10784 97.9 0.995 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 80.08 3036 4605 73299 10929 98.5 0.964 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 110 81.62 3098 4796 78896 11053 99.0 0.935 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 113 83.16 3160 4990 84990 11157 99.4 0.906 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 84.70 3222 5188 91641 11239 99.7 0.878 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 77.00 3058 4671 76877 10478 99.9 0.950 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 77.00 2717 3689 51016 10200 90.2 1.128


Cartridge : .35 Newton
Bullet : .358, 225, Nosler AccuBond 50712
Useable Case Capaci: 75.791 grain H2O = 4.921 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 81 59.20 2326 2704 32429 8251 91.8 1.379
-18.0 83 60.68 2384 2840 34608 8509 93.0 1.341
-16.0 85 62.16 2442 2980 36935 8756 94.2 1.304
-14.0 87 63.64 2500 3123 39421 8992 95.2 1.264
-12.0 89 65.12 2558 3270 42080 9216 96.1 1.225
-10.0 91 66.60 2616 3420 44924 9425 97.0 1.189
-08.0 93 68.08 2674 3573 47971 9619 97.7 1.153
-06.0 95 69.56 2732 3730 51238 9797 98.4 1.119
-04.0 97 71.04 2790 3889 54743 9958 98.9 1.086
-02.0 99 72.52 2848 4051 58507 10101 99.4 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 101 74.00 2905 4216 62558 10224 99.7 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 103 75.48 2962 4383 66920 10328 99.9 0.993 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 105 76.96 3019 4553 71626 10411 100.0 0.964 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 107 78.44 3075 4724 76711 10475 100.0 0.937 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 109 79.92 3131 4898 82214 10533 100.0 0.910 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 111 81.40 3187 5073 88181 10587 100.0 0.884 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 101 74.00 3024 4568 74624 9819 100.0 0.953 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 101 74.00 2733 3732 51634 10145 95.2 1.115

Here is some info on the .358-375 Ruger , and then you always have the .358 Shooting Times Alaska (STA). None of these cartridges get you 3000 fps with 250 grain bullets but 225 grains will get you there.
 
Maybe I need to stop looking for the perfect cartridge. lol
After reading what you guys have to say the killer for the Norma may be the brass availability. Its very difficult to beat the tried and true cartridges like 308,30-06,300 win mag regardless of the caliber I go to. I need some fair weather so I can go shoot what I have and stop contemplating how to spend money.
 
.358 Norma brass is instock at Midway and can be made from other commonly available brass. So I'd say it's a non issue, 50-100 pieces would probably last you a lifetime of shooting the .358 Norma.
 
About 40 years ago i bought a Schultz and Larsen model 65 rifle in .358 Norma magnum cheap from an estate. The gun has a custom stock with hideous rollover cheekpiece. The previous owner claimed his 250 grain handloads attained 2,900 fps. i could not swear to that.

i'm a lefty. Fired the gun once: That roll cheekpiece badly bruised my cheekbone. Except for cleaning and oiling it's been in the back of the big gun safe since.
 
The maximum overall length of the cartridge that your action will handle is probably going to be the most limiting factor. Not sure, but some of the cartridges mentioned may exceed that, especially with heavy bullets. The 308 Norma and the 358 Norma were two of the finest cartridges ever developed.......that almost no one ever made a rifle to shoot. Factory that is!

I have a 308 Norma that I had built over 40 years ago and I still love the gun AND the accuracy I get with it. That being said, I find my Ruger #1 .375 H&H is more pleasant to shoot. I like your choice of the 358, but I might favor the 35 Whelen, myself. I kind of like the old "wildcats" even though they've been "adopted" in recent years.......Still, I'll never forgive Remington for adopting my beloved 25-06!
 
I owned a custom 9.3 X 62 for a time. The barrel had been Magna-Ported to eliminate muzzle jump. It was based upon a Browning action. The rifle shot well enough and I killed a medium sized bull elk with it. But traded it off after awhile.

The 358 Norma MAG has great appeal to me, also.

Jack
 
I can install a Shilen barrel on the old FN for under $400 plus my time. I would still have to send the whole rig out to be polished and re-blued but I would have a pretty awesome custom Mauser for relatively cheep. Im still up in the air but im leaning back toward the 358 Norma again now that I know I can get brass and others seem to hold it in high regard
 
I hope you plan on adding a brake to the rifle. The .358 Norma is an absolute beast in the recoil department. Some chamberings seem to kick harder than they should. The .358 Norma is one of those.
 
Gents:

crawling out from under my rock:

I lurk here a lot. Good information if you are willing to look. I became enamored with the 358 Norma as a young impressionable lad in my teens. Procured an old commercial Mauser (my birth year, 1951, too!) barreled action in 1988, built up the rifle, begged, borrowed and stole ammo, dies and components. Never looked back.

Of all of my rifles, this is my go-to rifle for hunting. I have used it on mule deer, black bear, elk, caribou and a passel of spiral horned African plains game. One load only - 250 grain Swift A-Frame.

If I have a "tag" for something and I haven't worked up a rifle for that hunt, then I always default to the 358. It has been a reliable, accurate and deadly rifle/ammo combination for me.

Watch yer 6!
Dave Renn

crawling back under my rock
 
No mention of the .358 Shooting Times Alaskan?
Basically an 8mm Rem mag necked up. Would take a bit longer magazine well in the receiver. Lots of 7mm STW and Weatherby and H&H chambered donor rifles out there. Nothing too wrong with a .340 Weatherby either...

.35cal bullets? Kind of taken a backseat to all those developed for .338 caliber. 165gr to 300gr range off the shelf.

Have to say have been intrigued with idea of a .357max Dan Wesson revolver teamed with a .35cal rifle... Might actually make a .35 handgun in Alaska a potentiality. Load with 200gr hardcast RCBS silhouette bullet. .357mag just a bit too anemic as a field carry handgun in my area. Not like there any merit in getting shots off at a Brown bear if they can't stop the creature.

Doing a custom rifle, have the chamber set so it headspaces on the shoulder with virgin brass, then the belt don't matter.
 
edward hogan,

Talorce1 mentioned the 358 STA in reply #9.

The OP mentioned having an older commercial Mauser action. I'm not a fan of opening those up to accept H&H length cartridges although it can be done.

Jimro
 
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